Feb. PBS Bid Awards - ASA

[crj567]

What cracks me up is the XJT seem to think they are going to send their guys into the JCBA negotiations with a list of demands that they are going to get. It's like they think this is a hostage negotiation. We demand this, this and this!!!! Or else we'll hold this whole thing up. We demand our bidding, our scheduling, our reserve system and oh yea, 25% pay raises --- OR ELSE!!!!

Sorry, it won't work that way.

They seem to have done something right at some point. Their contract is sure as hell a lot better than ours.

 

[777forever]

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our line bidding system better than your PBS?

Doesn't matter. In this ultra competitive fee for departure world line bidding is highly inefficient. Especially with you guys having 6 days of integration.

XJT was unprofitable and now ASA is unprofitable. We need to get systems in place that increase efficiency without degrading pilot QOL. ASA's PBS is the 1st step. Next up, DUAL QUAL!

 

[DGdaPilot]

He might be ohhhhh what is the phrase..............."cautiously optomistic"

I'm glad everybody is happy and busy counting all their chickens.

He, like others are not quite high-fiving yet. The company has a long history of tweaking EVERY agreement we have EVER had. I think everyone worked REAL HARD to make these pairings look good. Will they put this much effort into the following months?

Just consider, they might tweak PBS to get everybody on board. We'll all be so happy we'll do ANTYTHING to convince EXJET that PBS is awesome. They need us to be happy for the JCBA negotiations/vote. After the vote WHAM! Pappagiorgio gets ahold of it again. If you were MGMT isn't that what YOU would do?

OR it could be the company has had a change of heart and wants us to enjoy an improved QOL after slowly crushing it over the last 4 years.

Given the past performance, which do you see as more likely?

I promise if this system turns out to benefit EVERYBODY after the JCBA is voted in, and for the following several months, I will happily eat my words.

I just don't trust them.

That is the nature of the RLA. The company finds loopholes. The union finds loopholes. Grievances are filed. In the same vein as your post, I'll make the following prediction:

Someday the world will end!!!! That's right, you heard it here first folks. I told ya all!

 

[crj567]

Doesn't matter. In this ultra competitive fee for departure world line bidding is highly inefficient. Especially with you guys having 6 days of integration.

XJT was unprofitable and now ASA is unprofitable. We need to get systems in place that increase efficiency without degrading pilot QOL. ASA's PBS is the 1st step. Next up, DUAL QUAL!

Has anyone here thought about Dual Qual? I mean really?

Since many people seem to have trouble with the whole thinking thing, I will help:

-If we are dual qual, we will have an override for pay. In other words, we will get paid a little more for time we actually spend flying the 70/90. BUT-what do you think vacation, sick time, and all the other credits will be paid at?!?

-For those on the 50, this may seem like a raise. For anyone fortunate enough to be on the 70, it clearly would be a significant pay cut. No longer would any of us get paid 70 rates for vacation, sick time, or any such other credit. Every credit you can think of would snap back to 50 rates-count on it.

So many of our pilots can't see past their own noses. It is truly a shame that we don't have the people around here that we had just 5 years ago. None of this crap would have slid by, we had people who were willing and able to think these things through.

(But let's not forget-we have to become the next Mesa to stay in business.)
(And whatever line of weak-ass horse******************** mgmt. is selling next week.)

 

[JoeMerchant]

We remain separate until we have a JCBA and SLI.

Then we will stay separate until you guys decide that PBS works for you...The majority of ASA pilots won't approve a JCBA that doesn't have PBS...If that's what you guys want, that is your choice...

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our line bidding system better than your PBS?

Has it ever occured to you guys that you might actually like our PBS? Has it ever occured to you that we do have to remain competitive and this was a way to do it AND added benefits to the pilots at the same time?

How will it work? Because, personally for me, I don't mind keeping the contract we have now than to agree to any concession. Management is the one who bought us and said they were going to save $70M after SOC so now they have to deal with us. But that's just me.

One thing I've learned about Jerry is that he generally gets what he wants or he walks away from the deal...You can pick this fight, but here are his loyalities in this order now...
1. Skywest
2. ASA
3. XJT
The majority of us at ASA have learned to work with Jerry...Go ahead and try it your way...

 

[79%N1]

and then Jerry will Whipsaw the XJT guys by moving flying to ASA or Skywest. Not saying I like that, or approve of it. But that IS what he will do.

 

[777forever]

Has anyone here thought about Dual Qual? I mean really?

Since many people seem to have trouble with the whole thinking thing, I will help:

-If we are dual qual, we will have an override for pay. In other words, we will get paid a little more for time we actually spend flying the 70/90. BUT-what do you think vacation, sick time, and all the other credits will be paid at?!?

-For those on the 50, this may seem like a raise. For anyone fortunate enough to be on the 70, it clearly would be a significant pay cut. No longer would any of us get paid 70 rates for vacation, sick time, or any such other credit. Every credit you can think of would snap back to 50 rates-count on it.

So many of our pilots can't see past their own noses. It is truly a shame that we don't have the people around here that we had just 5 years ago. None of this crap would have slid by, we had people who were willing and able to think these things through.

(But let's not forget-we have to become the next Mesa to stay in business.)
(And whatever line of weak-ass horse******************** mgmt. is selling next week.)

I see where you are coming from. You should see my friends on the 700 eyes light up with fear when I mention dual qual for the first time. Just like many pilots wrongfully assume all PBS systems are the same, they also assume all dual qual is the same.

Dual Qual will not be accepted by this pilot group unless it involves pay and qol increases for all pilots. This imho will require not an override, but a blended payrate for all that is higher than current 700/900 pay. Afterall all pilot will be responsible for more material.

Like PBS, if Dual Qual helps the company save money and gives the pilots better pay and qol, it would be foolish to not consider it.

 

[crj567]

I see where you are coming from. You should see my friends on the 700 eyes light up with fear when I mention dual qual for the first time. Just like many pilots wrongfully assume all PBS systems are the same, they also assume all dual qual is the same.

Dual Qual will not be accepted by this pilot group unless it involves pay and qol increases for all pilots. This imho will require not an override, but a blended payrate for all that is higher than current 700/900 pay. Afterall all pilot will be responsible for more material.

Like PBS, if Dual Qual helps the company save money and gives the pilots better pay and qol, it would be foolish to not consider it.

Good thoughts. Maybe we can shoot for something like this. I like the basic idea, I just don't want everyone on the 700 to get their poopers stretched.

 

[centralpilot]

-If we are dual qual, we will have an override for pay. In other words, we will get paid a little more for time we actually spend flying the 70/90. BUT-what do you think vacation, sick time, and all the other credits will be paid at?!?

Dual Qual under these conditions is simply unacceptable. The SKWY override model is a concession in no uncertain terms. If Dual Qual is to be even remotely considered, it will have to be under much better terms.

 

[asa rat]

So combining XJT and ASA will yield savings but St George wants their cake while eating it too by keeping SKW separate. Tell me again why I have to be interested in dual qual?

 

[centralpilot]

So combining XJT and ASA will yield savings but St George wants their cake while eating it too by keeping SKW separate. Tell me again why I have to be interested in dual qual?

You don't.

 

[damnflyboy]

All I know is that I took a pay-cut this year from the $h1t five leg, 5.25 hour credit days. The 200 sucks, unless you like working more for less.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

Dual Qual will not be accepted by this pilot group unless it involves pay and qol increases for all pilots.

I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. Pilots are well known for selling each other out for a little gain. The American pilots voted in B pay scales on management's promise of more airplanes and growth. There are still scabs at Continental. Pilots will do a lot for just a few dollars more, and cannot be relied upon to look at the greater good.
Dual qual already exists at other airlines, and while I readily admit I don't know the details, I strongly suspect that the agreement at those airlines is not beneficial to ALL pilots with regard to pay and quality of life. Given that we have a lot of 200 pilots at ASa, I think dual qual would pass with ease were it put to a straight vote. Happily, our Union knows where the money is, and will certainly respect/represent the wishes of the senior guys, who are likely vigorously opposed to the concept of dual qual.

Absolutely no way will ASA pilots want to go back to line bidding after getting a taste of PBS

Read some of the other threads or ask around the lounge, and you will quickly realize that not every single pilot at ASa is happy with PBS. If I had to make a decision based on just this "taste", I would get rid of it.
/yes, I know how to bid.

 

[Freebrd]

All I know is that I took a pay-cut this year from the $h1t five leg, 5.25 hour credit days. The 200 sucks, unless you like working more for less.

pay cut? everyone quaranteed 75, u want mo $$$$ pick it up

 

[777forever]

pay cut? everyone quaranteed 75, u want mo $$$$ pick it up

Or bid the 700/900. Management should get the final block hours for summer shortly from Delta and a position notice should be coming out. With 200 pilots basically restricted to ATR/E120 schedules with low credit, Im predicting a mass exodus from the 200

 

[777forever]

I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. Pilots are well known for selling each other out for a little gain. The American pilots voted in B pay scales on management's promise of more airplanes and growth. There are still scabs at Continental. Pilots will do a lot for just a few dollars more, and cannot be relied upon to look at the greater good.
Dual qual already exists at other airlines, and while I readily admit I don't know the details, I strongly suspect that the agreement at those airlines is not beneficial to ALL pilots with regard to pay and quality of life. Given that we have a lot of 200 pilots at ASa, I think dual qual would pass with ease were it put to a straight vote. Happily, our Union knows where the money is, and will certainly respect/represent the wishes of the senior guys, who are likely vigorously opposed to the concept of dual qual.

Read some of the other threads or ask around the lounge, and you will quickly realize that not every single pilot at ASa is happy with PBS. If I had to make a decision based on just this "taste", I would get rid of it.
/yes, I know how to bid.

I agree with you that not every ASA pilot is happy with PBS, but the overwhelming majority are.

As far a the 200 pilots selling out the 700 pilots on dual qual, I respectly disagree. In fact, I highly doubt the union will even bring a proposal to the pilot group that shafts the 700/900 pilots.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

As far a the 200 pilots selling out the 700 pilots on dual qual, I respectly disagree. In fact, I highly doubt the union will even bring a proposal to the pilot group that shafts the 700/900 pilots.

My apologies for poor writing. I think the 200 guys would sell out the 700 guys were they given a chance, but the Union will make sure it never even gets that far.

 

[sweptback]

My apologies for poor writing. I think the 200 guys would sell out the 700 guys were they given a chance, but the Union will make sure it never even gets that far.

Honestly, I don't even think the company wants or needs dual qual at this point. The training expenditures to get everybody cross-trained would be unreal. Now that Delta is hell-bent on reducing the 200 fleet, what's the point of doing it for a dying airplane?

Remember when SkyWest went dual-qual they were in a period of unprecedented growth. You're training the newhires anyway, and the rest of the folks can get it done during their PC.

Also, SkyWest had many small bases that could go dual-qual one at a time. ASA has Atlanta. It could be done, but it would take about a year to train everybody, and we don't have near the instructors or sims available that we'd need to do it faster.

 

[777forever]

Honestly, I don't even think the company wants or needs dual qual at this point. The training expenditures to get everybody cross-trained would be unreal. Now that Delta is hell-bent on reducing the 200 fleet, what's the point of doing it for a dying airplane?

Remember when SkyWest went dual-qual they were in a period of unprecedented growth. You're training the newhires anyway, and the rest of the folks can get it done during their PC.

Also, SkyWest had many small bases that could go dual-qual one at a time. ASA has Atlanta. It could be done, but it would take about a year to train everybody, and we don't have near the instructors or sims available that we'd need to do it faster.

Very good points. You are probably right

 

[johnpeace]

I've been here for only 3 years...but what I've seen is that whenever the company has any flexibility...they don't use it to make our lives better.

Dual qual would be a huge flexibility for them...and I'm CERTAIN it would come at our expense, not for our benefit.

I'd vote 'no' on that one for sure.

 

[damnflyboy]

pay cut? everyone quaranteed 75, u want mo $$$$ pick it up

Yes. Pay cut. Because of the ATR routes, the average leg credit has gone down and the legs/day have gone up. I work 20 days a month, so there is no more to pick up. Hence, I work more for less. The 200 sucks. An exodus to the 700/900 is on the horizon!

 

[Nevets]

Doesn't matter. In this ultra competitive fee for departure world line bidding is highly inefficient. Especially with you guys having 6 days of integration.

XJT was unprofitable and now ASA is unprofitable. We need to get systems in place that increase efficiency without degrading pilot QOL. ASA's PBS is the 1st step. Next up, DUAL QUAL!

You are correct about the 6 days of transition. That part of our contract downright sucks. I'm not totally against PBS though although it'll take a lot to convince me.

I don't know about this ASA unprofitable thing, not that it makes a difference when we all make money for the same CEO, BOD, and shareholders. And last time I checked Inc made money and had $800M in the bank.

As for dual qual, I certainly see that as a strong possibility considering our existing rates. It could be employed in a positive way.

Then we will stay separate until you guys decide that PBS works for you...The majority of ASA pilots won't approve a JCBA that doesn't have PBS...If that's what you guys want, that is your choice...

But what if our system is better? Then the majority of your pilots would approve our system. I sincerely dont mind being separate at this point rather than take any concession, but again, that's just me.

Yup and that is why I keep an open mind about it. Will you do the same about our system? As for remaining competitive, once JA and company decide to save money by not operating two separate airlines with two sets of almost everything, then I might consider that argument. Until then, he can go pound sand!

He didn't get what he wanted two years ago. He made many concessions on the second deal.

and then Jerry will Whipsaw the XJT guys by moving flying to ASA or Skywest. Not saying I like that, or approve of it. But that IS what he will do.

They can't do that per the transition and process agreement.

 

[Freebrd]

has to be some openings to do dat, might not happen for awhile

 

[Speedtape]

Simple math tells me that we do indeed need to sell XJT on PBS if we decide we want to keep it.

How about if we just sell XJT and grow internally! Then you don't have to worry about seniority integration or all the other boat anchor issues they bring with them. They need us, we don't need them!

 

[Speedtape]

So it seems that all the junior people that were on reserve are happy they are finally getting a line. I hope you are happy.... This PBS is a double edged sword. The company has announced that we are receiving 4 more 700s and yet no vacancy award has come out. The company doesn't need to upgrade because they get a increase in efficiency with PBS. Hope you enjoy your lines as PBS has reduced the number of upgrades that will come.

It is rumored that there will be one out within the next few weeks. So, a guy in the training departmet said.

 

[Speedtape]

He might be ohhhhh what is the phrase..............."cautiously optomistic"

I'm glad everybody is happy and busy counting all their chickens.

He, like others are not quite high-fiving yet. The company has a long history of tweaking EVERY agreement we have EVER had. I think everyone worked REAL HARD to make these pairings look good. Will they put this much effort into the following months?

Just consider, they might tweak PBS to get everybody on board. We'll all be so happy we'll do ANTYTHING to convince EXJET that PBS is awesome. They need us to be happy for the JCBA negotiations/vote. After the vote WHAM! Pappagiorgio gets ahold of it again. If you were MGMT isn't that what YOU would do?

OR it could be the company has had a change of heart and wants us to enjoy an improved QOL after slowly crushing it over the last 4 years.

Given the past performance, which do you see as more likely?

I promise if this system turns out to benefit EVERYBODY after the JCBA is voted in, and for the following several months, I will happily eat my words.

I just don't trust them.

Eat your words, you filthy animal!

 

[Speedtape]

Ditto, 100% ditto....

The best defense is a good offense, especially with this type of system. If the company can figure out a way to hose people, they will. Every time we have ever trusted our mgmt. (past or current,) to "play ball," they have wound up kicking our balls in. History should be our guide.

You need to get some counselling for that Paranoia issue!

 

[Speedtape]

They seem to have done something right at some point. Their contract is sure as hell a lot better than ours.

They are hiring. Get off your sorry keister and fill out an application! They need a few more malcontents. Then, tell us how great it is! (chirp, chirp)

 

[Nevets]

How about if we just sell XJT and grow internally! Then you don't have to worry about seniority integration or all the other boat anchor issues they bring with them. They need us, we don't need them!

Your management didn't seem to think so.

 

[Medeco]

Your management didn't seem to think so.

Ok, lets be realistic then.

Skywest/ASA bought XJT not for its superior product, but rather to plant a firm foot inside the new UAL/CO.

The very same reason they bought ASA from DAL.

They know what they need to keep the money coming, and they also know how to run a profitable Regional airline.

The above statement does not mean they do it all while keeping employees perfectly happy, but they know how to juggle that kind of ball too.

It really is just that simple.