FAPA (F9) question

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Are you guys developing a plan for if Bedford tries to push Republic pay rates on you or worse, pulls a Midwest Express? No one needs the further spread of commuter pay rates on mainline routes. Stand your ground. This affects us all.

 

[arjayeffo]

We signed a letter of agreement before the final transaction that includes theoretical job protection for all pilots currently on property as well as pay rates through 2015. Im being vague because so is my knowledge of the finite details. I say 'theoretical' because isnt every protection, at every airline (scope, job protections, etc) just that?

 

[Skyboy722]

We signed a letter of agreement before the final transaction that includes theoretical job protection for all pilots currently on property as well as pay rates through 2015. Im being vague because so is my knowledge of the finite details. I say 'theoretical' because isnt every protection, at every airline (scope, job protections, etc) just that?

Were the pay rates pre or post concessionary? Best of luck...

 

[airmack]

Those rates are for the Airbus, but when Bedford changes the aircraft to 190's then all bets are off. You will get the low pay these guys love so much.

 

[chase]

Follow on question for the FAPA folks:

Was this negotiated in conjunction with the RAH pilot group or independently?

When will the F9 pilots merge/consolidate with the RAH pilots, 2015?

What fences, if any are there in place?

Thanks for any information. It is a very interesting situation that is developing.

 

[Minimaniac]

Follow on question for the FAPA folks:

Was this negotiated in conjunction with the RAH pilot group or independently?

When will the F9 pilots merge/consolidate with the RAH pilots, 2015?

What fences, if any are there in place?

Thanks for any information. It is a very interesting situation that is developing.

This was not negotiated with RAH/IBT present.

They will merge long before 2015.

Fences are a negotiated part of an integration agreement, not a pay continuation agreement.

Frontier pilots essentially voted to keep their current pay rates until such time that Frontier pilots are integrated with RAH pilots AND a new CBA or an LOA is created that covers work rules and pay for the Airbus. Since a new CBA for RAH pilots is way off, F9 pilots will keep their pay for a while.

RAH pilots will not be able to fly the Airbus until some integration agreement is implemented to allow it. And we all know F9 pilots won't give up what they have.

The E190 simply cannot replace the A319/320. The economics of the Airbus make sense on high load routes, and the E190 is not capable of flying the long range stuff (coast to coast, full loads to distant Caribbean and central american destinations. The E190 may replace the Airbus on some thinner routes, but those Airbuses will be put into service elsewhere. Already you can see this by the move of 5 Airbuses to MKE. No Airbuses are slated to leave.

 

[StaySeated]

Were the pay rates pre or post concessionary? Best of luck...

FAPA signed an LOA long before our marriage with RAH and that LOA will bring original book rates back, in steps. The LOA that was ratified with RAH just prior to the BK exit retains the book rates plus some additional 2% raises in the future. It remains to be seen whether or not we will still be working under our CBA for that long into the future.

FAPA really did an amazing job maintaining the CBA during BK. No work rules were lost. There was an initial 15%ish pay cut. That cut was reduced to around 10%, and the book rates are on their way back along with some raised in the future. Too bad we will eventually shelve the entire CBA and have to start over from scratch. I would like to place the first vote for the FAPA Negotiating committee to begin working on the RAH Section 6 negotiations.

 

[Cornelius]

Integration is going to take much longer than you RAH guys think. Due to the complexity of the integration, you guys would be silly to think parties will come up with an agreement voluntarily. An arbitrator will have to intervene.

 

[GuinessGuy]

a lot of those RAH misfits think they will be in the left seat of the Bus inside of 2 years.......
Also, i've heard with my own ears "Frontier guys are lucky to have jobs, we bought them."
They will fly those at any pay rate of crappy work rule, Bedford knows it

 

[GuinessGuy]

I posted this on another thread but, I hope the arbitrator takes into consideration, "Career Expectations."
Frontier was a destiation/career carrier. Republic/Shuttle America/Chautauqua was a stepping stone or island of misfit toys.
Guys came from the Commuters or Supplimental or Military and went to Frontier, not the other way around.

 

[chase]

Minimaniac,

Thanks for the simply and unemotional answers...if I can ask a few others, thanks in advance for answering if you can...opinions or facts are fine since this is FI!

1. As you explained, the payrates for F9 are different than what RAH has at their other carriers and you believe the lists will come together before 2015. Realistically, how long do F9 pilots believe BB will allow the higher pay scale to occur? Is there any fear that a USAir/America West scenario can develop from this current arragnement in terms of "haves and have nots"?

2. Is there any pressure from RAH and BB to force the two groups F9 and RAH to blend/merge sooner rather than later?

3. Do the pilots of F9 believe their brand will exist in the near (18 months or less), medium (18 months to 3 years) or long term (greater than 3 years)? Very hypothetical I realize and no need to respond if too nebulous but I'm interested in the perspective/mindset of what their outlook is in your opinion.

4. Lastly, is there any fear of further furloughs among F9 pilots?

Thanks in advance for replying.

 

[Bluestreak]

a lot of those RAH misfits think they will be in the left seat of the Bus inside of 2 years.......
Also, i've heard with my own ears "Frontier guys are lucky to have jobs, we bought them."
They will fly those at any pay rate of crappy work rule, Bedford knows it

Bull.Here's a gem from..uh..YOU...You know ,when YOU worked there:


"RAH pays industry average for 70 Seat pay. The work rules are pretty good also. (not perfect and a far cry from a major)
The FA's have it rough, their pay is crap."

 

[USMC319]

Thanks for the simply and unemotional answers...if I can ask a few others, thanks in advance for answering if you can...opinions or facts are fine since this is FI!

1. As you explained, the payrates for F9 are different than what RAH has at their other carriers and you believe the lists will come together before 2015. Realistically, how long do F9 pilots believe BB will allow the higher pay scale to occur? Is there any fear that a USAir/America West scenario can develop from this current arragnement in terms of "haves and have nots"?
2. Is there any pressure from RAH and BB to force the two groups F9 and RAH to blend/merge sooner rather than later?
3. Do the pilots of F9 believe their brand will exist in the near (18 months or less), medium (18 months to 3 years) or long term (greater than 3 years)? Very hypothetical I realize and no need to respond if too nebulous but I'm interested in the perspective/mindset of what their outlook is in your opinion.
4. Lastly, is there any fear of further furloughs among F9 pilots?

Thanks in advance for replying.

Hi Chase,

We have been advised not to discuss SLI issues in public, but since you are one of the cool SWA guys, I thought I would respond in general.

1.) BB signed off on the F9 CBA with its return to book rates and subsequent pay raises, therefore I believe he understands what mainline pilots cost to acheive one of the most productive and cost effective pilot groups in the industry. You get what you pay for.

2.) If BB had his way he would never merge these pilot groups. He prefers to keep them seperate but has recently said he wouldn't block a SLI effort unless it became bad for business. I guess he could always spin F9 off or sell 50.1% to one of his investment banker buddies.

3.) All indications are that the Frontier brand will be the surviving brand although the Midwest brand will be retained for the foreseeable future. Obviously that is what we would like to see at F9.

4.) Never say never (even at SWA) but F9 is scheduled to take delivery of new Airbusses soon and resume growth mode so furloughs are unlikely. Word at the schoolhouse is that furloughs will all be back on property and hiring off the street possible by next year.

The general mood is that F9 pilots would like to have a flow-through for the other pilot groups to come to mainline if they wish, and to work together on a common CBA that would be beneficial for all parties. We'll see how that goes.

 

[BE200drvr]

We signed a letter of agreement before the final transaction that includes theoretical job protection for all pilots currently on property as well as pay rates through 2015. Im being vague because so is my knowledge of the finite details. I say 'theoretical' because isnt every protection, at every airline (scope, job protections, etc) just that?

Republic lives by the phrase. "Fly it and grieve it later"

What a sad way to operate. Watch out.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hi Chase,

We have been advised not to discuss SLI issues in public, but since you are one of the cool SWA guys, I thought I would respond in general.

1.) BB signed off on the F9 CBA with its return to book rates and subsequent pay raises, therefore I believe he understands what mainline pilots cost to acheive one of the most productive and cost effective pilot groups in the industry. You get what you pay for.

2.) If BB had his way he would never merge these pilot groups. He prefers to keep them seperate but has recently said he wouldn't block a SLI effort unless it became bad for business. I guess he could always spin F9 off or sell 50.1% to one of his investment banker buddies.

3.) All indications are that the Frontier brand will be the surviving brand although the Midwest brand will be retained for the foreseeable future. Obviously that is what we would like to see at F9.

4.) Never say never (even at SWA) but F9 is scheduled to take delivery of new Airbusses soon and resume growth mode so furloughs are unlikely. Word at the schoolhouse is that furloughs will all be back on property and hiring off the street possible by next year.

The general mood is that F9 pilots would like to have a flow-through for the other pilot groups to come to mainline if they wish, and to work together on a common CBA that would be beneficial for all parties. We'll see how that goes.

Interesting, as an outside observer, I have to say I'm really hoping F9 does well. From what I can see you have a great operation and I know the one time I flew on you with my family it was a great ride. This industry used to have a lot of cool airlines (PSA, Piedmont, AirCal, the first Frontier, Aloha, etc etc. that are gone). It's nice to see a good Colorado Airline surviving.
I am blown away by the blatantly petty attitude of a few SWA pilots that somehow think your choosing to try and continue to build the airline you have started rather than get tacked on to the bottom of someones list is a slap in their face. There have been a few posts on here that are an embarrassment to the airline piloting profession. It wasn't all that long ago that SWA was much less of an airline than the one F9 is today. This is a volatile industry, the only thing you can say for sure about the airline business in no airline is a sure bet and we all live in glass houses. If anything SWA could be heading for a downturn and F9 could be heading for better times. You certainly offer a better product for someone buying a ticket in DEN. Anyway, good luck, I think a lot of people have been pretty annoyed by some of the hyper competitiveness of the few SWA folks on here.

 

[runwayjockey]

Interesting, as an outside observer, I have to say I'm really hoping F9 does well. From what I can see you have a great operation and I know the one time I flew on you with my family it was a great ride. This industry used to have a lot of cool airlines (PSA, Piedmont, AirCal, the first Frontier, Aloha, etc etc. that are gone). It's nice to see a good Colorado Airline surviving.
I am blown away by the blatantly petty attitude of a few SWA pilots that somehow think your choosing to try and continue to build the airline you have started rather than get tacked on to the bottom of someones list is a slap in their face. There have been a few posts on here that are an embarrassment to the airline piloting profession. It wasn't all that long ago that SWA was much less of an airline than the one F9 is today. This is a volatile industry, the only thing you can say for sure about the airline business in no airline is a sure bet and we all live in glass houses. If anything SWA could be heading for a downturn and F9 could be heading for better times. You certainly offer a better product for someone buying a ticket in DEN. Anyway, good luck, I think a lot of people have been pretty annoyed by some of the hyper competitiveness of the few SWA folks on here.

Dear Dan,
Thanks for your editorial opinion. You could have saved yourself and the readers of Flight Info a lot time simply by summarizing the above diatribe into one sentence. I, Dan Roman, HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT SWA.

BTW. I don't think the pilots of SWA disapprove of the choice the F9 guys made, they did what they felt was best for their future. Its just that most of us would rather be working with the F9 guys to dominate new markets rather than fighting them for it.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dear Dan,
Thanks for your editorial opinion. You could have saved yourself and the readers of Flight Info a lot time simply by summarizing the above diatribe into one sentence. I, Dan Roman, HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT SWA.

BTW. I don't think the pilots of SWA disapprove of the choice the F9 guys made, they did what they felt was best for their future. Its just that most of us would rather be working with the F9 guys to dominate new markets rather than fighting them for it.

And nothing could be further from the truth. In fact I once posted a similar type "editorial" that was disagreeing with all the anti SWA posts. For the same type of reason. The whole "my airline can beat up your airline" thing. I put a post that defended SWA as a great airline and couldn't understand all the SWA bashing. If the pilots working there like it, why would anyone fault that? That's the litmus test for having a good job, it's if you like it. I see a lot of people that don't seem to like their job bashing SWA (maybe the couldn't get hired?) and I see people that do like their job bashing SWA just because it's a different airline.
You'll notice I said a "few" SWA pilots sound like a Texas high school football team. All the SWA people I've met have been great and I don't think they feel like the "few" posters on here that have in fact acted like ass's towards the F9 pilots, that string about the song with Bad Boys words changed was an embarrassment.
Yes it's a competitive industry and we are all competing at the corporate level and yes everyone is a little guilty of cheerleading for their airline, it's just that a "few" SWA folks on here have taken it too far. I have nothing again SWA, but I would rather see F9 prosper in DEN and have a good career than see SWA just be able to grow another city at the expense of a good airline.

 

[runwayjockey]

I have nothing again SWA, but I would rather see F9 prosper in DEN and have a good career than see SWA just be able to grow another city at the expense of a good airline.

Dan,


So it is ok for F9 to prosper in MKE at the expense of Midwest?
I don't believe any thing was offered to the YX guys after the F9 guys took over! Not even a staple job!

 

[Flying the Line]

Dan,


So it is ok for F9 to prosper in MKE at the expense of Midwest?
I don't believe any thing was offered to the YX guys after the F9 guys took over! Not even a staple job!

F9 didn't do anything to Midwest, they didn't buy them. You know that and you know better than to say that.

 

[737tanker]

We signed a letter of agreement before the final transaction that includes theoretical job protection for all pilots currently on property as well as pay rates through 2015.

Just wondering did the LOA include paying $3000 per month and full medical for every pilot on furlough? If not why did you want that from SWA and not from Republic?

 

[arjayeffo]

Thanks Dan. Level headed comments are at a premium on here. If only runwayjockey had enough composure to realize that both of his comments only proved your points exquisitely.

 

[arjayeffo]

Just wondering did the LOA include paying $3000 per month and full medical for every pilot on furlough? If not why did you want that from SWA and not from Republic?

It was an initial offer. Thats how negotiations work. Both sides start big and meet somewhere in the middle. What we came up with in the LOA with Republic was after much lengthier negotiations, with more than 3 hours to work on it. And as so many are so fond of pointing out...we were in bankruptcy. I think FAPA did a respectable job under the circumstances.

If you knew, as GK stated, that the deal would only proceed with labor agreement, then why did you wait until the final hours to start negotiating?

None of the SW pilots on here, making comments like this one have yet to answer the fundamental question....over a month later. (No offense to all the cool ones, my friends, and even the great crew we shared the van with last night...)

"WHY DO YOU STILL CARE?" If you do nothing else in further responses, please just answer this one. And don't say "I don't care" because your actions clearly indicate otherwise. Its not because we pose a threat to you. You can and will crush us in Denver whenever you want, right?. Its not because we are dragging down the industry, because you just passed your new TA by almost 88%. Its not because we fly international, because you already announced your plans to do so in the future. So why?

If little old Frontier is of no concern to you...then why all of the concern?

 

[shearedshaft]

"WHY DO YOU STILL CARE?" If you do nothing else in further responses, please just answer this one. And don't say "I don't care" because your actions clearly indicate otherwise. Its not because we pose a threat to you. You can and will crush us in Denver whenever you want, right?. Its not because we are dragging down the industry, because you just passed your new TA by almost 88%. Its not because we fly international, because you already announced your plans to do so in the future. So why?

If little old Frontier is of no concern to you...then why all of the concern?

Because we're the smart, successful guy that asked the pretty girl to the prom. Instead, she chose the dumb meathead to go with.

We're all just enjoying the schadenfreude that will soon be upon you Frontier guys. "Look what you could have had!" will be the mantra of the day, as the meathead starts to smack you around a little bit. Then a little more. When you find yourselves in the shoes the Midwest pilots find themselves in, we'll be able to say, "See? Shouldn't have gone with the meathead with a history of spousal abuse. Should have gone with the nice guy..."

And it's coming. That's the fun part. You made your bed, now there's an audience just on the edge of their seats waiting for you to have to sleep in it. As the song goes, the 190s are coming for you, Bedford is coming for you, the Teamsters are coming for you and your eyes are squinched completely shut.

With the squinched shut eyes, you are repeating to yourselves, "He promised job protection. He promised job protection."

We're the audience at the Roman lion feasts...the difference is that instead of slaves going unwillingly to get torn up, you guys chose that fate on purpose.

It's not going to end well, and it could have. It's sort of like watching the highschool stoner skip class one too many times. You just can't avert your eyes from people that make really, really bad decisions about their future.

 

[runwayjockey]

Thanks Dan. Level headed comments are at a premium on here. If only runwayjockey had enough composure to realize that both of his comments only proved your points exquisitely.

Ignorance is bliss!

BTW composure is overrated on FI. You have just proved that.

Have a nice day.

 

[arjayeffo]

Because we're the smart, successful guy that asked the pretty girl to the prom

Wow, that was even easier than I thought it would be.

All hail the smart successful guy.

BTW, who do you fly the E190 for?

 

[runwayjockey]

F9 didn't do anything to Midwest, they didn't buy them. You know that and you know better than to say that.

F9 is nothing more than a pawn on Bedford's chessboard. To say that F9 pilots are not benefiting from the demise of YX is not only an injustice to the former pilots of YX it's a flat out lie. Mr. Romans, who my question was originally directed at, speaks to great length about his dissaproval of SWA's actions in attempting to purchase F9. From his point of view "SWA would be growing another city (DEN) at the expense of a good airline". Yet this is exactly what F9 has done in MKE by having their pilots fly Midwest flights. Why the double standard?

 

[shearedshaft]

Wow, that was even easier than I thought it would be.

All hail the smart successful guy.

BTW, who do you fly the E190 for?

You're missing the point. The "smart, successful guy", got sent walking.

No need to "hail", just realize that once you guys did something that was, um, "shortsighted" ("job protection", cough).

The world, especially the spurned suitor, is going to watch the crash and burn with fascination.

You know deep down that you traded some short term pain for a lifetime of being stuck with the guy who smacks your face when you didn't get the sammich fast enough.

The reason everyone is still so interested is because we're only halfway done with the story. You think it's time to say, "Nothing to see here, move along", but the rest of use, to use a FI term, are "getting out the popcorn".

When the screams start to come as the lions begin to feast, we won't be able to avert our eyes. When you call out, "But wait! Where's that fence that Bedford promised? He promised!", we'll still have our eyes glued.

See, we all know how the story is going to end (you too), but the plot twists and turns are simply fascinating. I mean c'mon! You got the Teamsters wanting to integrate right into your seats, you have a hollow promise from management that you don't have to worry your pretty little head about that Teamster stuff, you have Midwest pilots leaving for their last time tomorrow (tomorrow!) and you have Southwest about to pimp-slap your corporate overlord, who has a grand total of $113 million in cash going into the hardest winter this industry has ever seen...

Now really. Do you expect us all to turn off the television right as it gets exciting?

I know you want to do your suffering in private, but too late, the kleig lights are on you.

 

[arjayeffo]

Apologies to Mr. Roman as I step in again. F9 starts flying out of MKE on the day that the Midwest 717's leave. We didn't have anything to do with that (we're just pawns, right?).
Midwest is taking part in the beginnings of integration talks with all the rest of us. I'm sure that you would prefer we at Frontier refuse to fly these routes on principle just at the exact same time Southwest enters the market.
I believe that eventually an arbitrator will place Midwest pilots on the new seniority list, and that some of them will come back to work. And I am even man enough to admit that a lot of the Midwest pilots deserve to go in front of me on that list. So I don't view it as growing anything at their expense, only keeping the seats warm for their return. Preserving the market against other airlines that aren't too proud to swoop in and take advantage of Midwest's drawdowns either.

 

[arjayeffo]

You're missing the point. The "smart, successful guy", got sent walking.

No, I understood the point perfectly. And you proved mine again...perfectly. Dont feel bad, everyone gets lured into an obvious trap now and then.

On a lighter note, 'pimp-slappin' the corporate overlord and not getting the sammich fast enough were hilarious. Depsite my disagreement with your points, I was laughing my ass off.

 

[runwayjockey]

"WHY DO YOU STILL CARE?" If you do nothing else in further responses, please just answer this one. And don't say "I don't care" because your actions clearly indicate otherwise. Its not because we pose a threat to you. You can and will crush us in Denver whenever you want, right?. Its not because we are dragging down the industry, because you just passed your new TA by almost 88%. Its not because we fly international, because you already announced your plans to do so in the future. So why?

If little old Frontier is of no concern to you...then why all of the concern?

I think the underlying fear here is not becoming F9's b!tch, but what exactly are Bedford's plans for F9 in the airline industry and how will it indirectly affect other pilots in the industry. The last thing we need now as pilots, is F9 being whipsawed against the other pilots of Republic who fly for much less. The F9 pilots had a chance at unifying with SWA to create a much stronger carrier in DEN while at the same time preserving wages that lead the industry. I think many would agree the short term gains to be made with Republic outweighed those offered by SWA, but at what price in the longterm?

Best of luck to all!