FAPA (F9) question

[arjayeffo]

Thanks Dan. Level headed comments are at a premium on here. If only runwayjockey had enough composure to realize that both of his comments only proved your points exquisitely.

 

[arjayeffo]

Just wondering did the LOA include paying $3000 per month and full medical for every pilot on furlough? If not why did you want that from SWA and not from Republic?

It was an initial offer. Thats how negotiations work. Both sides start big and meet somewhere in the middle. What we came up with in the LOA with Republic was after much lengthier negotiations, with more than 3 hours to work on it. And as so many are so fond of pointing out...we were in bankruptcy. I think FAPA did a respectable job under the circumstances.

If you knew, as GK stated, that the deal would only proceed with labor agreement, then why did you wait until the final hours to start negotiating?

None of the SW pilots on here, making comments like this one have yet to answer the fundamental question....over a month later. (No offense to all the cool ones, my friends, and even the great crew we shared the van with last night...)

"WHY DO YOU STILL CARE?" If you do nothing else in further responses, please just answer this one. And don't say "I don't care" because your actions clearly indicate otherwise. Its not because we pose a threat to you. You can and will crush us in Denver whenever you want, right?. Its not because we are dragging down the industry, because you just passed your new TA by almost 88%. Its not because we fly international, because you already announced your plans to do so in the future. So why?

If little old Frontier is of no concern to you...then why all of the concern?

 

[shearedshaft]

"WHY DO YOU STILL CARE?" If you do nothing else in further responses, please just answer this one. And don't say "I don't care" because your actions clearly indicate otherwise. Its not because we pose a threat to you. You can and will crush us in Denver whenever you want, right?. Its not because we are dragging down the industry, because you just passed your new TA by almost 88%. Its not because we fly international, because you already announced your plans to do so in the future. So why?

If little old Frontier is of no concern to you...then why all of the concern?

Because we're the smart, successful guy that asked the pretty girl to the prom. Instead, she chose the dumb meathead to go with.

We're all just enjoying the schadenfreude that will soon be upon you Frontier guys. "Look what you could have had!" will be the mantra of the day, as the meathead starts to smack you around a little bit. Then a little more. When you find yourselves in the shoes the Midwest pilots find themselves in, we'll be able to say, "See? Shouldn't have gone with the meathead with a history of spousal abuse. Should have gone with the nice guy..."

And it's coming. That's the fun part. You made your bed, now there's an audience just on the edge of their seats waiting for you to have to sleep in it. As the song goes, the 190s are coming for you, Bedford is coming for you, the Teamsters are coming for you and your eyes are squinched completely shut.

With the squinched shut eyes, you are repeating to yourselves, "He promised job protection. He promised job protection."

We're the audience at the Roman lion feasts...the difference is that instead of slaves going unwillingly to get torn up, you guys chose that fate on purpose.

It's not going to end well, and it could have. It's sort of like watching the highschool stoner skip class one too many times. You just can't avert your eyes from people that make really, really bad decisions about their future.

 

[runwayjockey]

Thanks Dan. Level headed comments are at a premium on here. If only runwayjockey had enough composure to realize that both of his comments only proved your points exquisitely.

Ignorance is bliss!

BTW composure is overrated on FI. You have just proved that.

Have a nice day.

 

[arjayeffo]

Because we're the smart, successful guy that asked the pretty girl to the prom

Wow, that was even easier than I thought it would be.

All hail the smart successful guy.

BTW, who do you fly the E190 for?

 

[runwayjockey]

F9 didn't do anything to Midwest, they didn't buy them. You know that and you know better than to say that.

F9 is nothing more than a pawn on Bedford's chessboard. To say that F9 pilots are not benefiting from the demise of YX is not only an injustice to the former pilots of YX it's a flat out lie. Mr. Romans, who my question was originally directed at, speaks to great length about his dissaproval of SWA's actions in attempting to purchase F9. From his point of view "SWA would be growing another city (DEN) at the expense of a good airline". Yet this is exactly what F9 has done in MKE by having their pilots fly Midwest flights. Why the double standard?

 

[shearedshaft]

Wow, that was even easier than I thought it would be.

All hail the smart successful guy.

BTW, who do you fly the E190 for?

You're missing the point. The "smart, successful guy", got sent walking.

No need to "hail", just realize that once you guys did something that was, um, "shortsighted" ("job protection", cough).

The world, especially the spurned suitor, is going to watch the crash and burn with fascination.

You know deep down that you traded some short term pain for a lifetime of being stuck with the guy who smacks your face when you didn't get the sammich fast enough.

The reason everyone is still so interested is because we're only halfway done with the story. You think it's time to say, "Nothing to see here, move along", but the rest of use, to use a FI term, are "getting out the popcorn".

When the screams start to come as the lions begin to feast, we won't be able to avert our eyes. When you call out, "But wait! Where's that fence that Bedford promised? He promised!", we'll still have our eyes glued.

See, we all know how the story is going to end (you too), but the plot twists and turns are simply fascinating. I mean c'mon! You got the Teamsters wanting to integrate right into your seats, you have a hollow promise from management that you don't have to worry your pretty little head about that Teamster stuff, you have Midwest pilots leaving for their last time tomorrow (tomorrow!) and you have Southwest about to pimp-slap your corporate overlord, who has a grand total of $113 million in cash going into the hardest winter this industry has ever seen...

Now really. Do you expect us all to turn off the television right as it gets exciting?

I know you want to do your suffering in private, but too late, the kleig lights are on you.

 

[arjayeffo]

Apologies to Mr. Roman as I step in again. F9 starts flying out of MKE on the day that the Midwest 717's leave. We didn't have anything to do with that (we're just pawns, right?).
Midwest is taking part in the beginnings of integration talks with all the rest of us. I'm sure that you would prefer we at Frontier refuse to fly these routes on principle just at the exact same time Southwest enters the market.
I believe that eventually an arbitrator will place Midwest pilots on the new seniority list, and that some of them will come back to work. And I am even man enough to admit that a lot of the Midwest pilots deserve to go in front of me on that list. So I don't view it as growing anything at their expense, only keeping the seats warm for their return. Preserving the market against other airlines that aren't too proud to swoop in and take advantage of Midwest's drawdowns either.

 

[arjayeffo]

You're missing the point. The "smart, successful guy", got sent walking.

No, I understood the point perfectly. And you proved mine again...perfectly. Dont feel bad, everyone gets lured into an obvious trap now and then.

On a lighter note, 'pimp-slappin' the corporate overlord and not getting the sammich fast enough were hilarious. Depsite my disagreement with your points, I was laughing my ass off.

 

[runwayjockey]

"WHY DO YOU STILL CARE?" If you do nothing else in further responses, please just answer this one. And don't say "I don't care" because your actions clearly indicate otherwise. Its not because we pose a threat to you. You can and will crush us in Denver whenever you want, right?. Its not because we are dragging down the industry, because you just passed your new TA by almost 88%. Its not because we fly international, because you already announced your plans to do so in the future. So why?

If little old Frontier is of no concern to you...then why all of the concern?

I think the underlying fear here is not becoming F9's b!tch, but what exactly are Bedford's plans for F9 in the airline industry and how will it indirectly affect other pilots in the industry. The last thing we need now as pilots, is F9 being whipsawed against the other pilots of Republic who fly for much less. The F9 pilots had a chance at unifying with SWA to create a much stronger carrier in DEN while at the same time preserving wages that lead the industry. I think many would agree the short term gains to be made with Republic outweighed those offered by SWA, but at what price in the longterm?

Best of luck to all!

 

[arjayeffo]

I think the underlying fear here is not becoming F9's b!tch, but what exactly are Bedford's plans for F9 in the airline industry and how will it indirectly affect other pilots in the industry. The last thing we need now as pilots, is F9 being whipsawed against the other pilots of Republic who fly for much less.

And I sincerely couldn't agree more on all points. Even if we succeed, and ruin the ending of ShearedShaft's double feature, it will be decades before we were any kind of threat to SWA.

So as to your point about the whipsaw aspect, that is why I began the thread answer with the 'theoretical' job protection statement, and why I have been a proponent of integration from the beginning. I recognize this as a very good answer to my question. Much better than, "I can't wait for you to crash and burn because you didn't choose me for the prom."

 

[runwayjockey]

Preserving the market against other airlines that aren't too proud to swoop in and take advantage of Midwest's drawdowns either.

self-right⋅eous

–adjective confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.

Synonyms:
arjayeffo

 

[Dan Roman]

F9 is nothing more than a pawn on Bedford's chessboard. To say that F9 pilots are not benefiting from the demise of YX is not only an injustice to the former pilots of YX it's a flat out lie. Mr. Romans, who my question was originally directed at, speaks to great length about his dissaproval of SWA's actions in attempting to purchase F9. From his point of view "SWA would be growing another city (DEN) at the expense of a good airline". Yet this is exactly what F9 has done in MKE by having their pilots fly Midwest flights. Why the double standard?

Just to be clear, I didn't say anything about disapproval of SWA attempting to buy F9. If a deal could have been made that made both sides happy (I know, I know, impossible) fine. The point is that a deal wasn't made, for whatever reason. So be it. There are a few SWA guys acting like ass's.
SWA is NOT the hot girl at the prom, none of us are. The only constant is change. PanAm and TWA were two of the top airlines in the 1960's, Braniff was the most profitable in the 1970's, Eastern the biggest in the 1980's and United was the "hot girl at the prom" in the 1990's.
The simple fact is it's all a crapshoot, and to go around thinking F9 made a mistake by not jumping on SWA's offer is arrogant and stupid. None of us knows how they will do, but I happen to think F9 has a good chance of being a very strong carrier and growing on their own. You can't fault them for that. They certainly have the hometown advantage. UAL may be hurting, but anything could happen. They still have strong feed and may merge with CO. I would think right now SWA is in third place in DEN and may or may not succeed. Big deal, they do well in lots of other places.

 

[arjayeffo]

self-right⋅eous

–adjective confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.

Synonyms:
arjayeffo

Guess you posted that before you read my last post. Oh well.

 

[runwayjockey]

Just to be clear, I didn't say anything about disapproval of SWA attempting to buy F9. If a deal could have been made that made both sides happy (I know, I know, impossible) fine. The point is that a deal wasn't made, for whatever reason. So be it. There are a few SWA guys acting like ass's.
SWA is NOT the hot girl at the prom, none of us are. The only constant is change. PanAm and TWA were two of the top airlines in the 1960's, Braniff was the most profitable in the 1970's, Eastern the biggest in the 1980's and United was the "hot girl at the prom" in the 1990's.
The simple fact is it's all a crapshoot, and to go around thinking F9 made a mistake by not jumping on SWA's offer is arrogant and stupid. None of us knows how they will do, but I happen to think F9 has a good chance of being a very strong carrier and growing on their own. You can't fault them for that. They certainly have the hometown advantage. UAL may be hurting, but anything could happen. They still have strong feed and may merge with CO. I would think right now SWA is in third place in DEN and may or may not succeed. Big deal, they do well in lots of other places.

Agree.

Best of luck!

 

[Dan Roman]

Apologies to Mr. Roman as I step in again. F9 starts flying out of MKE on the day that the Midwest 717's leave. We didn't have anything to do with that (we're just pawns, right?).
Midwest is taking part in the beginnings of integration talks with all the rest of us. I'm sure that you would prefer we at Frontier refuse to fly these routes on principle just at the exact same time Southwest enters the market.
I believe that eventually an arbitrator will place Midwest pilots on the new seniority list, and that some of them will come back to work. And I am even man enough to admit that a lot of the Midwest pilots deserve to go in front of me on that list. So I don't view it as growing anything at their expense, only keeping the seats warm for their return. Preserving the market against other airlines that aren't too proud to swoop in and take advantage of Midwest's drawdowns either.

No apologies neccessary, good post.
As you well know we are all pawns of corporate decisions. You are right about the difference as well as I don't see any F9 guys going around making up songs about kicking Midwests ass.
The simple fact is we can't control what goes on at the corporate level, but we can treat fellow pilots or pilot groups with respect. We're all better off when we do that and we are all worse off when we stoop to the "my airline is better than your airline" crap

 

[Dan Roman]

Agree.

Best of luck!

Thanks! the funny thing is, it's very easy to misunderstand someones posts on here. We are pilots, not writers. The reality is, people who battle each other on here would probably find a whole different person if they met face to face on a layover. I would bet even Gen Lee would be good beer drinking company on layover with any of the SWA folks here!

 

[runwayjockey]

Guess you posted that before you read my last post. Oh well.

I read your post. Talk is cheap!

Give up your seat on the bus for a guy at YX and I'll eat my words and buy ya beer. Until then get off the soapbox!

Best of luck!

 

[arjayeffo]

I admit that a lot of Midwest guys deserve to go ahead of me on the seniority list, and you accuse me of being self-righteous.

I agree 100% with your points in a post and you accuse me of being intolerant to the opinions of others.

Anything I say which might be constructive, is just 'cheap talk'.

And the only way I can get a beer from you, is by doing something that is impossible as far as I know.

I submit. I have no response to your logic. Argument conceded.

Best of luck to all

 

[runwayjockey]

I admit that a lot of Midwest guys deserve to go ahead of me on the seniority list, and you accuse me of being self-righteous.

I agree 100% with your points in a post and you accuse me of being intolerant to the opinions of others.

Anything I say which might be constructive, is just 'cheap talk'.

And the only way I can get a beer from you, is by doing something that is impossible as far as I know.

I submit. I have no response to your logic. Argument conceded.

Best of luck to all

This industry sucks! I'll buy you a beer anyway!