Falsifying his logbook, what do i do?!

[dcramer16]

My roomate and I are living in Florida Banner Towing. We had a few beers the other night and he got to bragging and told me about how he has been adding in a few hours here and a few hours there in his logbook. I WAS MORTIFIED? I told him he was going to get caught and get his liscense taken away. He said he was just trying to get to the airlines quicker. I am really really worried about him. We have been friends for years. We joined a school together, learned to fly together, work together! He is a great guy and a better pilot than me. But he is also very thickheaded. He said there is no FAA secret police, or no airline secret police that is going to go through every entry in his logbook to verify it. He said he will get a "real" job quicker and nobody will find out. I disagree. I think he needs to buy a new logbook, transfer the flights he DID fly to the new one, and burn the old one. He said he can't even remember which flight he did fly and which flight he didn't. Apparently he has been doing it for months. I have heard of pilots getting fired in the past for this sort of thing, but I couldn't find any of these storys or reports online to show him. Sorry if I am rambling, but I am really worried about him! Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Don't bother reporting him and definately don't do it yourself.

Integrity is pretty important in this business.

 

[dcramer16]

As bad as it sounds, and even as wrong as it may be, I would never report him. I could never do that. But I have enough moral character that I would never do it.

 

[dseagrav]

Just wait. Karma WILL catch up to him at some point. There are no exceptions. Sometimes it takes a few years, but it never fails.

 

[Erlanger]

Oh please! I don't believe any of this about your "friend". It's you, that's the falsifier! Your story sounds made up and not from the heart.

 

[dcramer16]

Then don't believe it.

 

[ksu_aviator]

As bad as it sounds, and even as wrong as it may be, I would never report him. I could never do that. But I have enough moral character that I would never do it.

Who would you report him too? Until he uses those false hours to apply for a certificate, the FAA could care less what he logs.

Now as for "moral character" it takes moral character to report him, not the other way around. Where is our society when we believe that moral character means NOT reporting violations to the appropriate authority?

 

[The_Russian]

My roomate and I are living in Florida Banner Towing. We had a few beers the other night and he got to bragging and told me about how he has been adding in a few hours here and a few hours there in his logbook. I WAS MORTIFIED? I told him he was going to get caught and get his liscense taken away. He said he was just trying to get to the airlines quicker. I am really really worried about him. We have been friends for years. We joined a school together, learned to fly together, work together! He is a great guy and a better pilot than me. But he is also very thickheaded. He said there is no FAA secret police, or no airline secret police that is going to go through every entry in his logbook to verify it. He said he will get a "real" job quicker and nobody will find out. I disagree. I think he needs to buy a new logbook, transfer the flights he DID fly to the new one, and burn the old one. He said he can't even remember which flight he did fly and which flight he didn't. Apparently he has been doing it for months. I have heard of pilots getting fired in the past for this sort of thing, but I couldn't find any of these storys or reports online to show him. Sorry if I am rambling, but I am really worried about him! Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

He can log whatever he wants. It's his logbook. It may not be a legal or honest entry, but it's his logbook. On top of that, it's none of your business. Right or wrong, you are less than a friend to post info like that on this board. Especially when your screen name is your first initial and full last name.

BTW from your previous posts I believe that you are less than professional as an aviator. You are a rogue and a rat who has a less than sufficent level of aeronautical knowledge. I know that not only from this board, but second hand from friends who have shared a cockpit with you.

Good day.

 

[AerroMatt]

Just wait. Karma WILL catch up to him at some point. There are no exceptions. Sometimes it takes a few years, but it never fails.

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw years ago. It said, "I think my Karma just ran over your Dogma." :nuts:

 

[A Squared]

Who would you report him too? Until he uses those false hours to apply for a certificate, the FAA could care less what he logs.

No, this is not true. I can show you at least two seperate cases where fasification charges were brought against pilots for falsifying thier logbooks, and the the pilots' certificates were revoked. In both cases the falsified time was in thier logbooks only, had never been put on an 8710 or otherwise used to apply for a certificate or privelige. In fact, in at least one of those cases,(maybe both, I'd have to review) the pilot in question claimed exatly what you just said, that it wasn't falsification becuse they hadn't used the time to apply for a rating. Neither the FAA nor the NTSB was impressed by that argument, not even a little. In addition to those two NTSB cases, I beleive I can find others, which don't speak quite as directly to the sutuation at hand, but cite the well established principle that if it's false and in your logbook, it's falsification, regardless of whether or not you use it on an application.

If you're interested in reading the NTSB orders, I could dig them out for you.

Now as for "moral character" it takes moral character to report him, not the other way around. Where is our society when we believe that moral character means NOT reporting violations to the appropriate authority?

Nicely put.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Logbooks are to be considered "usable" or "admissable" in a court of law....

unless of course the belief was that pilots and thier logbooks couldn't be trusted...

You could go the "give a chance" course... it would ruin the friendship...
Which would be... "You've got 30 days to destroy the logbook and show a new one or a letter goes to the FSDO."

But he could create a false new log and not destroy the padded one thus continuing ot use it....... Is there an ethics course at UND or ERAU?

What are you doing about the militants who are cutting off limbs in the Ivory Coast? Sometimes you gotta let people take thier own path and control what you can..... which is you.

 

[dcramer16]

BTW from your previous posts I believe that you are less than professional as an aviator. You are a rogue and a rat who has a less than sufficent level of aeronautical knowledge. I know that not only from this board, but second hand from friends who have shared a cockpit with you.

I have been busy moving and working at my new job I haven't posted for the last 5 months. So I am assuming you are refering to my posts condeming Ari Ben about 5 months ago, since that is about the only thing I have ever really posted about. So if you are questioning my professionalism, and integrity because of that...All I can say is they had a great PR campaign against me. Good for them. But no need to keep bringing up something irrelevant. If anyone is a rat, its you for bringing up something that happened almost half a year ago, and trying to stir up controversy and trouble. How professional is that?

 

[Rally]

Then only thing that would be illegal would be to log it towards currency or a certificate. You can log what ever you want but if its for a rating or certificate or currency, your done. Alot of people do it, its rampant. I don't, in fact I underlogged for many years. I owned my own airplane without a hobbs meter and logged "flight time" (not knowing any better, I guess I never figured I'd pick up a FAR in the first few years) instead of "one the aircrafts own power to the time it comes to rest under its own power". Ever hear of P-51 time? (its a type of pen)

http://www.sinistershop.com/c_yuropen.htm

 

[say again]

Let it go, it's his problem if he gets caught. He knows what he's doing in wrong. You told him once, now it's up to him what to do next.

 

[PositionandHold]

Fly what you can, log what you need

[just kidding]

In all seriousness, though, what you do is nothing. Keep your nose in your own logbook, and let it go. Eventually, an airline will realize when a "1,000hr" pilot flies like a 200 hour pilot.

 

[A Squared]

Then only thing that would be illegal would be to log it towards currency or a certificate. You can log what ever you want but if its for a rating or certificate or currency, your done.

Sigh, no, this is incorrect. Read my previous post. If you put it in yourlogbook and it's false, that's illegal and you can be violated for it if caught. The FAA can and does violate people for this. It stands up on appeal before the NTSB. I can show you the rulings. Like I said, pilots being violated for this have used the exact logic you quoted and it didn't get them squat.

Read the discussion before running your mouth.

 

[JediNein]

For grins and giggles (I usually use a different cliche), please post the O&Os. Thanks A Squared!

 

[BushwickBill]

If he is logging single engine time here and there it can't be worth the risk he is taking. If he is logging valuable time multi engine turbine for example someone will ask him about it during an interview. If you don't know about the aircraft your logging time in then your in trouble. He will get what he deserves. Most likely that he would have gotten hired anyway after a few months what airline does he want to get hired by. 1 year of hard work CFIing will get you just about into any regional.

 

[BushwickBill]

So how would the find out about these flight times?

Was he reported by someone else?

I'm just curious but how would the examiner know that someone had falsifed a logbook?

 

[A Squared]

For grins and giggles (I usually use a different cliche), please post the O&Os. Thanks A Squared!

Don't have time right now to dig them out right at the moment, but one, as I recall, was admin v pierson (pearson?) and Crow(e?) the other I don't recall the names but it centered around a a guy who claimed that he was an fo on a citation flight when he wasn't on board the airplane. As I recall, they both used the "I didn't use it for anything" defense, and both failed.

The Order that Mushroom posted is yet another example. "I didn't need the hours for my ATP so it's not falsification" Scroll down to the bottom to see how well that worked.

The initial decision and the emergency order of
revocation are affirmed.

 

[A Squared]

So how would the find out about these flight times?

Was he reported by someone else?

I'm just curious but how would the examiner know that someone had falsifed a logbook?

It usually comes up in an investigation for some other purpose. Guy has and accident, they review his logbooks, he has an *amazing* amount of time logged in a short period of time, raises a red flag, inspector does a little checking.

 

[The_Russian]

A Squared you are very much in the right here. I believe I have read about such litigation in my Aviation Law book. I am not at home right now, but when I do get home I will post the source you are speaking of.

 

[BushwickBill]

It usually comes up in an investigation for some other purpose. Guy has and accident, they review his logbooks, he has an *amazing* amount of time logged in a short period of time, raises a red flag, inspector does a little checking.

Gotcha,

I've logged a lot of time in the family's 152. For a short time I was recording the hobbs time when I was flying in a seperate logbook that I kept in our aircraft. After a while I gave up on the idea. Basicly it was a pain in the butt. Of course I was flying the aircraft to my job, instructing all day and occasionally giving private instruction after flying home. I was flying a lot and was worried about someone questioning the time. It is hard for me to imagine how someone could find out if the time was false or not. I guess an NTSB accident investigation would do it. The slow hand of justice is sure thorough.

 

[The_Russian]

I have been busy moving and working at my new job I haven't posted for the last 5 months. So I am assuming you are refering to my posts condeming Ari Ben about 5 months ago, since that is about the only thing I have ever really posted about. So if you are questioning my professionalism, and integrity because of that...All I can say is they had a great PR campaign against me. Good for them. But no need to keep bringing up something irrelevant. If anyone is a rat, its you for bringing up something that happened almost half a year ago, and trying to stir up controversy and trouble. How professional is that?

Those of us who have read your posts have noticed your tendency to disclose information on here that is not appropriate. That is what makes you "less than professional". If you want to report his violation, do not do it on here. Report it to the proper authorities. As far as being a "rat" is concerned, you should attempt to handle this between yourselves before bringing it to the authorities so that he may relaize his error and correct his mistake.

That goes the same for your posts on Ari Ben.

 

[dcramer16]

If you want to report his violation, do not do it on here. Report it to the proper authorities. As far as being a "rat" is concerned, you should attempt to handle this between yourselves before bringing it to the authorities so that he may relaize his error and correct his mistake.

I do not want to report his violation, and will not "rat" on him. The question I had was basically "Is there anything I can tell him to make him change his mind?" This is not inappropriate. And I have tried to handle it on my own, and I do not know enough about other peoples experiences with this sort of thing, to convince him to stop. If I thought I could handle it on my own I wouldn't have asked for advice. Isn't this forum about asking for advice?

 

[Lars!]

I know of a pilot who applied with a large Part 121 pax air carrier with some bogus GA time in his logbook. Trouble was, one of the logbook checkers used to be the head CFI where the airplane was based and caught the guy in a lie.

He didn't get the job. Does everyone who logs pen time get caught? No. But some do. It's the same with most every law.

 

[A Squared]

For grins and giggles (I usually use a different cliche), please post the O&Os. Thanks A Squared!

Here's a link to the crow/perason Order:


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4008.PDF.

I mispoke earlier in that the "I didn't put it on an application so it's not falsification" defense wasn't specificly invoked in this case, but, they were found guilty of falsification, even though they hadn't used the time on an application.


From the Opinion:

It is crucial that pilot logbooks be free of knowing misrepresentations of fact in order that the FAA may effectively discharge it sresponsibility to promote air safety.

In this particular incident it was an airplane accident that led an inspector to review the logbooks of the pilots and he discovered that the two logbooks had a series of identical entries of PIC time on the same dates.

If you're playing the "split the time" game by "giving each other dual" you'd best sign the logbook of the "student". It's required anyway, and if you don't, you could get your certificates revoked for falsification. That's what happened in this case.


Here's the record from The Case of the Phantom Citation Copilot:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4260.PDF.


In this one the guy with the cooked logbook did try the "I didn't put it on an application so it's not falsification" defense. He got his certificate revoked. In this case the falsification came to light becase an inspector was already investigating a possible (probable) flight without a required SIC, the logbook falsification was done to try to cover up, so the feds were already suspicious.

A Squared you are very much in the right here. I believe I have read about such litigation in my Aviation Law book. I am not at home right now, but when I do get home I will post the source you are speaking of.

If you dig up other cases like this, I'd be interested in reading about them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Another point is.... your cooked logbooks might not be found out unless there is another reason to dig.... The FAA can't be everywhere making sure everyone is doing the job properly... that is why we are called professionals. Pro's don't need the FAA looking over our shoulders making sure we are doing a good job...

 

[aucfi]

"I certify that entries in this log are true {SIGNED}"

 

[Bluestreak]

Who would you report him too? Until he uses those false hours to apply for a certificate, the FAA could care less what he logs.

Now as for "moral character" it takes moral character to report him, not the other way around. Where is our society when we believe that moral character means NOT reporting violations to the appropriate authority?

Egg-zactly ! Did you see Anderson Cooper interviewing some idiot rapper on 60 minutes ? Take a look:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] NEW YORK, April 20 A code of ethics and business would prevent rap star Cam'ron from helping police, even if he were the victim, the rapper said in an interview in New York.

Cam'ron's revelation came in an interview with Anderson Cooper on how the hip-hop culture's idea of avoiding police undermined police efforts to solve murders, CBS said. Cooper's report airs Sunday on CBS' "60 Minutes." "If I knew the serial killer was living next door to me? I wouldn't call and tell anybody on him -- but I'd probably move," Cam ' ron, whose real name is Cameron Giles, said. When Cooper said he'd talk to police if victimized, Giles told him, "(You are ) not going to be on the stage tonight in the middle of, say, Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, with people with gold and platinum teeth and dreadlocks jumping up and down singing your songs, either." Yes, it's business, Giles said, "but it's still also a code of ethics." Rappers are concerned about maintaining their tough "street credibility," said Geoffrey Canada, an anti-violence advocate and educator from New York ' s Harlem. Fans look up to artists if they come from the "meanest streets of the urban ghetto" so they don ' t cooperate with police.
[/FONT]
"Street cred" ? Who gives a s*it ?