Falsifying his logbook, what do i do?!

[CrimsonEclipse]

Integrity is pretty important in this business.

Since when?

CE

 

[JAFI]

Did some one ask for a reference?

61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.

(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

 

[A Squared]

Did some one ask for a reference?

61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.

(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

Thanks for posting that JAFI. The trouble with that is that those who are seeking to rationalize putting false entries in thier logbook use a twisted rationale that goes something like this: This particular *entry* that I'm falsifying is not "required" because I can show all the currency and qualifications I need by using only the truthful entries, thus my falsified entries aren't "required to be kept" therefore it's not illegal to pad it. Now, we both know that the FAA doesn't buy this interpretation, but you'd be surprised how often I've heard this logic used to rationalize away the illegality of padding. I guess my question is: Why the he11 are you looking for a reason to claim that putting false entries in your logbook isn't illegal?

 

[414Flyer]

He is falsifying his logbook to get the regional airlines faster??? Thats a little bizarre in todays hiring environment.

Rushing to get a regional airline job seems to be about like speeding to get a root canal done.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

He is falsifying his logbook to get the regional airlines faster??? Thats a little bizarre in todays hiring environment.

Rushing to get a regional airline job seems to be about like speeding to get a root canal done.

Ouch!!

(I laughed)

CE

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Just post his name on here....that should be punishment enough.

 

[SIG600]

I've seen this go both ways. Getting caught in an interview trying to explain flight time you didn't fly, and getting feds called in. I also knew guys that "logged what they needed" because they needed the job to put food on the table. I happen to know of two VERY (like top ten) senior pilots, at two major airlines, that got there because they pencil whipped some crucial time way back in their career, rather than suck tit for several more years scrapeing by. It may be wrong, but most people in high places didn't get there through moral fortitude and integrity 100% of the time.

 

[AC560]

It may be wrong, but most people in high places didn't get there through moral fortitude and integrity 100% of the time.

How could they have done this and possibly met the requirement of 61.153 (c). Next you are going to tell me there is no Santa Claus.

 

[siucavflight]

None of your business. He wont get caught and he will get a job sooner then you. Would I ever do it? No, but many do and no one gets caught.

Oh wait everyone knows someone who knows some guy who went in for a commercial checkride and had a bunch of time in the examiners plane logged. This is a true story I sware.

 

[Bluestreak]

While he may not have falsified his log book,what if one of these people who knew this clown would have talked to the feds about him ? Four innocent people would still be alive:


NTSB Identification: ATL07FA077
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, April 22, 2007 in Hamilton, GA
Aircraft: Beech 58, registration: N5647C
Injuries: 5 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On April 22, 2007, about 1451 eastern daylight time, a Beech BE-58, N5647C, registered to Renaissance Aircraft Management LLC, operating as a 14 CFR Part 91 personal flight, broke up in flight in the vicinity of Hamilton, Georgia. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The airplane was destroyed. The private pilot and 4 passengers were fatally injured. The flight originated from Jack Edwards Airport, Gulf Shores, Alabama, at about 1300 central daylight time.

A witness stated he was in his boat fishing in a lake in the vicinity of his home. He heard an airplane approaching his location from the southeast to the northwest. It sounded as if the pilot was performing some acrobatic maneuvers. The witness looked up and could not see the airplane. The engine noise continued to increase in intensity and the witness observed the airplane to the north of the lake heading northwest. The airplane was high and descending very fast in a 45 to 60 degree nose down attitude. The witness stated he observed a wing or part of the tail separate from the airplane in the vicinity of Hamilton Mulberry Grove Road. He immediately went to his boat dock and to his home and called the 911 emergency operators to report the accident.

A motorist approached a Georgia State Patrol Officer at the accident scene and informed the Officer that he was a friend of the deceased pilot. He further informed the officer that he was planning on purchasing an airplane from the pilot, and the pilot was going to use the money from the sale of the airplane to purchase the Beech 58 that he was flying at the time of the accident. The motorist further stated that the accident pilot "flying skills were below his standards because the pilot was known for overstressing the planes he flew." The motorist further stated from having flown with him and he made a statement to a friend about three weeks ago that the accident pilot would probably crash an airplane within the next year.

A friend of the pilot stated the pilot was in his shop on Friday, April 20, 2007, before he departed to Gulf Shores, Alabama on a fishing trip in his Beech 58. The friend informed the pilot, "That he thought he was stupid and not to do anything in the airplane that would get him hurt." The pilot stated, "I think I can roll this airplane." The friend stated, "The pilot had been at Sun N' Fun in Lakeland, Florida, during the week and had observed a performer rolling a Beech 18, and the deceased pilot just kept the rolling issue in his head." The friend stated the pilot had flown with a retired airline pilot, who owns a Beech 55, and the pilot had rolled the airplane with the deceased pilot as a passenger.

Another friend of the deceased pilot stated, he was in the right front seat of the airplane on April 19, 2007, on a return flight from Sun N' Fun in Lakeland, Florida, with two other passengers in the back seats. They departed Lakeland, Florida, and the pilot climbed to an initial cruising altitude of 9, 500 feet. The autopilot was on and the airplane was cruising at 220 knots. The pilot climbed to 10,500 feet to see if they could get a better ground speed and eventually descended back down to 9,500 feet. A short time later, the pilot stated, "I want to try something." The pilot rolled the airplane to the left side, and then back to the right side with the autopilot off and stated, "I believe its possible to roll this airplane."

The pilot pushed down on the control yoke, initiated a descent, and turned the airplane to the left, pulled back on the control yoke, and the airplane went up and over to the right like a spiral until the airplane was in a knife-edge attitude. The friend of the pilot stated he did not know what airspeed they obtained while the pilot was performing this maneuver and stated, " It got me out of my comfort zone, and I could not handle it." The friend stated he grabbed the flight controls, leveled the airplane, and stated to the pilot, "I can not do this." The pilot replied, "I believe it is possible to roll this airplane." The pilot descended down to 7,500 feet and leveled off in cruise flight, and there was no further discussion about rolling the airplane. A short time later, the pilot pulled the power back on the right engine, feathered the propeller, and they continued towards Griffin, Georgia, in cruise flight. The pilot started the engine, and they made their decent and landing at Griffin.


The others knew he was dangerous and said nothing.Now 4 people died as a result.

 

[Hollywood82]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I would give him the option of fixing his logbook or being turned in. More than you friendship could be lost... There is a small chance that he could get a 135 single pilot job and kill someone.

I'm tired of people turning a blind eye to these types to save their own butts. I know noone's perfect but logging false time is one of the lowest things someone can do. For anyone who says karma will catch up to your friend they aren't thinking of the other people his karma could take down too.

All of this brings another question to mind. WHY would you associate yourself with a dink like this? AVOID HIM!! Reputations are contagious.

 

[highsky]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I would give him the option of fixing his logbook or being turned in. More than you friendship could be lost... There is a small chance that he could get a 135 single pilot job and kill someone.

I'm tired of people turning a blind eye to these types to save their own butts. I know noone's perfect but logging false time is one of the lowest things someone can do. For anyone who says karma will catch up to your friend they aren't thinking of the other people his karma could take down too.

All of this brings another question to mind. WHY would you associate yourself with a dink like this? AVOID HIM!! Reputations are contagious.

Agreed.

Find some new friends who have integrity.

 

[navigator72]

People who tell others of their misdeeds are idiots and they will lose everytime. It may not happen today or tomorrow but it will happen. This is a serious Integrity issue.

 

[TrafficInSight]

I read one a couple years ago where the FAA basically audited a flight school's records and found that a couple of instructors were logging all scheduled flights whether they actually flew or not... one flight was logged as 1.1 when the actual time was .1 because of a mechanical issue, then the same instructor logged another flight in the airplane while it was in maintenance for the previous issue.

Revocations for everyone.

 

[JAFI]

A couple years back some war-bird community DE’s were giving each other type ratings in various aircraft. The problem was, the word “giving” was appropriate. The airman never flew the aircraft for the exam. As I recall it was over 20 pilots caught. I knew one of the airmen. He lost his ATP, CFI(s), and a fist full of type ratings. He was left with his Commercial MEL so he could keep working. The Judge told him “You should know better (than falsify records to obtain a rating)”. His lawyer said he could fight the ruling but it would be cheaper to re-take all the rating exams than go to court.

You gotta ask your self how lucky do you feel………..

Once you start digging that hole it is real hard to climb out of it.

The choice is yours.

JAFI

 

[satpak77]

REPORT HIM

That is one less piece of (insert) that is in the employment line. Imagine if you and him went to a SWA panel, based on his "hours".

For whatever reason, you don't have the super secret SWA interview formula, and get "thanks for applying"

Lets say Mr. Slick gets hired.

How would that make you feel.

The attitude of "its not your business" is the same thing you see on 20/20, Dateline, when some poor dude is mugged by punks, and everyone on the street looks on.

"Not my business, look the other way sweetie."

REPORT HIM, GROW A PAIR

 

[The_Russian]

I question both of them as being trustworthy individuals. One guy is lying to further his career, and the other is willing to rat out his buddy. Which is worse?

 

[staledog]

I know noone's perfect but logging false time is one of the lowest things someone can do.

um, ok.

 

[nosehair]

I question both of them as being trustworthy individuals. One guy is lying to further his career, and the other is willing to rat out his buddy. Which is worse?

I take it from your "handle", and your comments about "ratting", that you really are from another culture.

In the culture that I grew up in, reporting a serious act which physically endagers others is not "ratting". It is essential to community development.

Especially in this aviation business, where there are not enough 'police' to keep the criminal acts in check, we must police ourselves.

We trust that every pilot that we share the airspace with has gotten there by honest means and has proven that he/she is worthy of flying and operating in a manner that ensures safety of all concerned.

You are trying to spread the "criminal-street mindset" that protects criminal acts into our profession.

Get out of here. Your kind are not welcome and you are a danger to us all.

In the past, I thought your comments were just rude, but this is over the line.

Falsification is not just a paper act, it is a clear and present danger to us all.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

What if you fly more like a 3,000 hour pilot than the 1,000 hour CFI you are. Can't you just add a few K's as this really represents your flying abilities?

Maybe your friend flies really, really well.

Pad til you reach your experience level!

 

[Long Time Gone]

Send him over to ASA, we'll hire him. We already have one on board, so what's the difference?

We have an ex-DFW CA, now ATL (of course), who was an instructor at CAA, was hired by Comair, and subsequently fired when they realized that he falsified the multi-time in his logbook. He had logged time in an aircraft somewhere out West, and someone allegedly called the owner of the aircraft to verify it. The current owner has been the owner for many, many, many, many, many years, and had no knowledge of this individual. Now he works at ASA.

Not that the information above should be surprising, for the same individual also:
1) Tried to hand prop a Seminole at CAA when it was 30 degrees outside, claiming that it was mandatory in the POH. The engine "back-compressed" on him, the prop nailed him in the head, and he was out like a cheap light bulb in the middle of the ramp. His name was changed to "Rocky". Anyone from CAA in the late 90's now knows who I'm talking about.
2) Claims he is an ex-cop.
3) Claims his wife works for the FBI.
4) Claimed at CAA while an instructor that he used to fly for "Con Air" and was only at CAA for fun.
5) During an overnight, noticed that the FA's room door was ajar as they all went upstairs. He placed the FA off to the side in the hallway, pulled out his "fake gun" (finger), burst into the room, rolled across the first bed, onto the floor in between the first and second beds, assumed a firing stance with his finger, all while screaming "Freeze, POLICE!!!!" at the top of his lungs.
6) Has one of the ugliest hair transplants that has ever existed.
7) Has one h@!! of a mouth on his airline's ALPA webboard, always getting into arguments about everything.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm out of time.

LTG

 

[Hollywood82]

um, ok.

um, ok? You don't think this is a big deal? Do you have friends that do this? Do you lie about times?

Anyone who has half a brain could tell you this is pretty low.

 

[The_Russian]

I take it from your "handle", and your comments about "ratting", that you really are from another culture.

No I am born and raised in the USA.

In the culture that I grew up in, reporting a serious act which physically endagers others is not "ratting". It is essential to community development.

Especially in this aviation business, where there are not enough 'police' to keep the criminal acts in check, we must police ourselves.

No, but he should have the balls to sit his buddy down and have a serious talk with him prior to calling a hotline. If you have a problem with something that someone is doing, you go to them first. Then, only when there is no other choice, do you report them. Just because the guy shared this over some beers can make the truth slide a little bit. He could have been exaggerating or even pulling the guys leg.

Sober the guy up and talk to him face to face. That shows good moral character. Maybe I come from "somewhere else", but I know how to handle issues like a man.

We trust that every pilot that we share the airspace with has gotten there by honest means and has proven that he/she is worthy of flying and operating in a manner that ensures safety of all concerned.

That doesn't excuse this guy from handling it in a man to man fashion first.

You are trying to spread the "criminal-street mindset" that protects criminal acts into our profession.

Get out of here. Your kind are not welcome and you are a danger to us all.

In the past, I thought your comments were just rude, but this is over the line.

Are you talking to me? You have to be kidding. It sounds as if you are taking my posts out of context.

Falsification is not just a paper act, it is a clear and present danger to us all.

Falsification? Maybe you should ask the original poster about falsification! This guy has absolutely no room to make accusations about other airmen. I know this from first hand information from those who have flown with "dcramer". While I agree with your thoughts on trust and safety, you should learn to take some of these idiots with a grain of salt. Remember that "dcramer" has a certain level of integrity to maintain as a pilot, just a much as his "friend" does. You will notice that many of the other posters agree with me.

 

[TrafficInSight]

he may get the better job but I will have the better life.

 

[highsky]

um, ok.

So, you don't get that?

Fool.

Apparently, you are one of those who would also cut in front of the line at Disneyworld just to serve yourself.

What exactly is the difference between you and a scab? You see yourself fit to occupy a position to which your experience does not entitle you.

Tool.

 

[Hollywood82]

I question both of them as being trustworthy individuals. One guy is lying to further his career, and the other is willing to rat out his buddy. Which is worse?

You can figure out which one is more trustworthy when pilot A kills everyone because he lied about his times to get a job, and piot B didn't speak up about his friend. But there is a third person who is less trustworthy than A and B, and that is the person calling Pilot B a rat.

I can't believe that anyone out there would be an advocate of falsifying times, unless they themselves also falsify the times in their logbook.... Russian???

If YOU were a real man you would automatically do what's right, and not be concerned who's the rat. That kind of thinking is reserved for the mafia, you hack!

 

[BushwickBill]

So, you don't get that?

Fool.

Apparently, you are one of those who would also cut in front of the line at Disneyworld just to serve yourself.

What exactly is the difference between you and a scab? You see yourself fit to occupy a position to which your experience does not entitle you.

Tool.

OMG how could someone do something so horrible!

 

[The_Russian]

You can figure out which one is more trustworthy when pilot A kills everyone because he lied about his times to get a job, and piot B didn't speak up about his friend. But there is a third person who is less trustworthy than A and B, and that is the person calling Pilot B a rat.

They both have an equal amount of extremely low integrity.

There is no third person in the equation here. Can't you see that? Just because I label "dcramer" a rat does not make me side with pilot A. BTW, pilot B is a rat if he doesn't speak to his friend before he goes to the Feds. There is a positive way to handle unprofessional situations.

I can't believe that anyone out there would be an advocate of falsifying times, unless they themselves also falsify the times in their logbook.... Russian???

You have taken my post completely out of context. In no way do I advocate falsifying the logged flight time information by Airmen. My post only defended the fact that this guy should present the issue to his friend in a professional manner prior to reporting him. Other posters have suggested reporting pilot A immediately to the authorities because of his actions. Why do you think that this is OK? What makes you think pilot B has all the information he needs to pull the trigger on pilot B?

How would you feel if you were drinking a beer with a buddy and you told him something you did that was unsafe, then your friend went to the authorities without even hinting to you that he was going to?

(Before you say you would never do anything unsafe, please remember that everyone makes mistakes. And, that we have all done stupid things in or around airplanes at some point. That is how we learn.)

Even if the conversation was casual, he may take what you say out of context. I think that anyone would prefer that your friend came to YOU first and spoke with you instead of running right to the authorities. This could help you realize your mistake and make the proper corrections to right things. If you were facing a violation, you would not be looking at this situation the same way.

If YOU were a real man you would automatically do what's right, and not be concerned who's the rat. That kind of thinking is reserved for the mafia, you hack!

No, if you were a real man you would speak to your fellow pilot face to face. Grow some balls and don't be a rat. Be professional and respect your fellow airman. When you do so, they will learn to respect other airmen and follow the rules as well.

Don't mistake what I say as an effort to support this guy falsifying his logbook. If you knew how to read a post objectively you would be able to see where I stand. Neither of these guys deserve to sit behind the wheel. Dcramer has a history of being less than professional in his actions. You should watch out for guys like him, they will help you get an LOI in the mail.

 

[Hollywood82]

They both have an equal amount of extremely low integrity.

There is no third person in the equation here. Can't you see that? Just because I label "dcramer" a rat does not make me side with pilot A. BTW, pilot B is a rat if he doesn't speak to his friend before he goes to the Feds. There is a positive way to handle unprofessional situations.

There is a third person. That is you, telling everyone that the person who does the right thing is a rat. The third party has an influence.

You have taken my post completely out of context. In no way do I advocate falsifying the logged flight time information by Airmen. My post only defended the fact that this guy should present the issue to his friend in a professional manner prior to reporting him. Other posters have suggested reporting pilot A immediately to the authorities because of his actions. Why do you think that this is OK? What makes you think pilot B has all the information he needs to pull the trigger on pilot B?

How would you feel if you were drinking a beer with a buddy and you told him something you did that was unsafe, then your friend went to the authorities without even hinting to you that he was going to?

(Before you say you would never do anything unsafe, please remember that everyone makes mistakes. And, that we have all done stupid things in or around airplanes at some point. That is how we learn.)

Making a mistake and lieing are 2 different things. Maybe I was raised differently than you but when I make a mistake I own up to it, and I sure as hell don't lie about my flight time.

Even if the conversation was casual, he may take what you say out of context. I think that anyone would prefer that your friend came to YOU first and spoke with you instead of running right to the authorities. This could help you realize your mistake and make the proper corrections to right things. If you were facing a violation, you would not be looking at this situation the same way.

No, if you were a real man you would speak to your fellow pilot face to face. Grow some balls and don't be a rat. Be professional and respect your fellow airman. When you do so, they will learn to respect other airmen and follow the rules as well.

If you wake up and pay attention you would know that on my first post I suggested that he give his friend the option of fixing his logbook or being turned in.

Don't mistake what I say as an effort to support this guy falsifying his logbook. If you knew how to read a post objectively you would be able to see where I stand. Neither of these guys deserve to sit behind the wheel. Dcramer has a history of being less than professional in his actions. You should watch out for guys like him, they will help you get an LOI in the mail.

I don't know Dcramer and I really don't give a crap about what he did. This is about you being an advocate for pilots to turn a blind eye to people that should be disciplined. This is all fine until someone is hurt or killed, that is extreme but still possible.

But, oh well it's ok if people die just as long as noones a rat. COME ON!!!

I would never include someone who lies about their times as a freind. This is an act of an extremely dishonest person.

 

[Fedora]

"If we didn't lie, we wouldn't have to remember so much" - Will Rogers

Get a new friend.