Falsifying his logbook, what do i do?!

[A Squared]

So how would the find out about these flight times?

Was he reported by someone else?

I'm just curious but how would the examiner know that someone had falsifed a logbook?

It usually comes up in an investigation for some other purpose. Guy has and accident, they review his logbooks, he has an *amazing* amount of time logged in a short period of time, raises a red flag, inspector does a little checking.

 

[The_Russian]

A Squared you are very much in the right here. I believe I have read about such litigation in my Aviation Law book. I am not at home right now, but when I do get home I will post the source you are speaking of.

 

[BushwickBill]

It usually comes up in an investigation for some other purpose. Guy has and accident, they review his logbooks, he has an *amazing* amount of time logged in a short period of time, raises a red flag, inspector does a little checking.

Gotcha,

I've logged a lot of time in the family's 152. For a short time I was recording the hobbs time when I was flying in a seperate logbook that I kept in our aircraft. After a while I gave up on the idea. Basicly it was a pain in the butt. Of course I was flying the aircraft to my job, instructing all day and occasionally giving private instruction after flying home. I was flying a lot and was worried about someone questioning the time. It is hard for me to imagine how someone could find out if the time was false or not. I guess an NTSB accident investigation would do it. The slow hand of justice is sure thorough.

 

[The_Russian]

I have been busy moving and working at my new job I haven't posted for the last 5 months. So I am assuming you are refering to my posts condeming Ari Ben about 5 months ago, since that is about the only thing I have ever really posted about. So if you are questioning my professionalism, and integrity because of that...All I can say is they had a great PR campaign against me. Good for them. But no need to keep bringing up something irrelevant. If anyone is a rat, its you for bringing up something that happened almost half a year ago, and trying to stir up controversy and trouble. How professional is that?

Those of us who have read your posts have noticed your tendency to disclose information on here that is not appropriate. That is what makes you "less than professional". If you want to report his violation, do not do it on here. Report it to the proper authorities. As far as being a "rat" is concerned, you should attempt to handle this between yourselves before bringing it to the authorities so that he may relaize his error and correct his mistake.

That goes the same for your posts on Ari Ben.

 

[dcramer16]

If you want to report his violation, do not do it on here. Report it to the proper authorities. As far as being a "rat" is concerned, you should attempt to handle this between yourselves before bringing it to the authorities so that he may relaize his error and correct his mistake.

I do not want to report his violation, and will not "rat" on him. The question I had was basically "Is there anything I can tell him to make him change his mind?" This is not inappropriate. And I have tried to handle it on my own, and I do not know enough about other peoples experiences with this sort of thing, to convince him to stop. If I thought I could handle it on my own I wouldn't have asked for advice. Isn't this forum about asking for advice?

 

[Lars!]

I know of a pilot who applied with a large Part 121 pax air carrier with some bogus GA time in his logbook. Trouble was, one of the logbook checkers used to be the head CFI where the airplane was based and caught the guy in a lie.

He didn't get the job. Does everyone who logs pen time get caught? No. But some do. It's the same with most every law.

 

[A Squared]

For grins and giggles (I usually use a different cliche), please post the O&Os. Thanks A Squared!

Here's a link to the crow/perason Order:


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4008.PDF.

I mispoke earlier in that the "I didn't put it on an application so it's not falsification" defense wasn't specificly invoked in this case, but, they were found guilty of falsification, even though they hadn't used the time on an application.


From the Opinion:

It is crucial that pilot logbooks be free of knowing misrepresentations of fact in order that the FAA may effectively discharge it sresponsibility to promote air safety.

In this particular incident it was an airplane accident that led an inspector to review the logbooks of the pilots and he discovered that the two logbooks had a series of identical entries of PIC time on the same dates.

If you're playing the "split the time" game by "giving each other dual" you'd best sign the logbook of the "student". It's required anyway, and if you don't, you could get your certificates revoked for falsification. That's what happened in this case.


Here's the record from The Case of the Phantom Citation Copilot:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4260.PDF.


In this one the guy with the cooked logbook did try the "I didn't put it on an application so it's not falsification" defense. He got his certificate revoked. In this case the falsification came to light becase an inspector was already investigating a possible (probable) flight without a required SIC, the logbook falsification was done to try to cover up, so the feds were already suspicious.

A Squared you are very much in the right here. I believe I have read about such litigation in my Aviation Law book. I am not at home right now, but when I do get home I will post the source you are speaking of.

If you dig up other cases like this, I'd be interested in reading about them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Another point is.... your cooked logbooks might not be found out unless there is another reason to dig.... The FAA can't be everywhere making sure everyone is doing the job properly... that is why we are called professionals. Pro's don't need the FAA looking over our shoulders making sure we are doing a good job...

 

[aucfi]

"I certify that entries in this log are true {SIGNED}"

 

[Bluestreak]

Who would you report him too? Until he uses those false hours to apply for a certificate, the FAA could care less what he logs.

Now as for "moral character" it takes moral character to report him, not the other way around. Where is our society when we believe that moral character means NOT reporting violations to the appropriate authority?

Egg-zactly ! Did you see Anderson Cooper interviewing some idiot rapper on 60 minutes ? Take a look:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] NEW YORK, April 20 A code of ethics and business would prevent rap star Cam'ron from helping police, even if he were the victim, the rapper said in an interview in New York.

Cam'ron's revelation came in an interview with Anderson Cooper on how the hip-hop culture's idea of avoiding police undermined police efforts to solve murders, CBS said. Cooper's report airs Sunday on CBS' "60 Minutes." "If I knew the serial killer was living next door to me? I wouldn't call and tell anybody on him -- but I'd probably move," Cam ' ron, whose real name is Cameron Giles, said. When Cooper said he'd talk to police if victimized, Giles told him, "(You are ) not going to be on the stage tonight in the middle of, say, Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, with people with gold and platinum teeth and dreadlocks jumping up and down singing your songs, either." Yes, it's business, Giles said, "but it's still also a code of ethics." Rappers are concerned about maintaining their tough "street credibility," said Geoffrey Canada, an anti-violence advocate and educator from New York ' s Harlem. Fans look up to artists if they come from the "meanest streets of the urban ghetto" so they don ' t cooperate with police.
[/FONT]
"Street cred" ? Who gives a s*it ?

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Integrity is pretty important in this business.

Since when?

CE

 

[JAFI]

Did some one ask for a reference?

61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.

(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

 

[A Squared]

Did some one ask for a reference?

61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.

(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

Thanks for posting that JAFI. The trouble with that is that those who are seeking to rationalize putting false entries in thier logbook use a twisted rationale that goes something like this: This particular *entry* that I'm falsifying is not "required" because I can show all the currency and qualifications I need by using only the truthful entries, thus my falsified entries aren't "required to be kept" therefore it's not illegal to pad it. Now, we both know that the FAA doesn't buy this interpretation, but you'd be surprised how often I've heard this logic used to rationalize away the illegality of padding. I guess my question is: Why the he11 are you looking for a reason to claim that putting false entries in your logbook isn't illegal?

 

[414Flyer]

He is falsifying his logbook to get the regional airlines faster??? Thats a little bizarre in todays hiring environment.

Rushing to get a regional airline job seems to be about like speeding to get a root canal done.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

He is falsifying his logbook to get the regional airlines faster??? Thats a little bizarre in todays hiring environment.

Rushing to get a regional airline job seems to be about like speeding to get a root canal done.

Ouch!!

(I laughed)

CE

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Just post his name on here....that should be punishment enough.

 

[SIG600]

I've seen this go both ways. Getting caught in an interview trying to explain flight time you didn't fly, and getting feds called in. I also knew guys that "logged what they needed" because they needed the job to put food on the table. I happen to know of two VERY (like top ten) senior pilots, at two major airlines, that got there because they pencil whipped some crucial time way back in their career, rather than suck tit for several more years scrapeing by. It may be wrong, but most people in high places didn't get there through moral fortitude and integrity 100% of the time.

 

[AC560]

It may be wrong, but most people in high places didn't get there through moral fortitude and integrity 100% of the time.

How could they have done this and possibly met the requirement of 61.153 (c). Next you are going to tell me there is no Santa Claus.

 

[siucavflight]

None of your business. He wont get caught and he will get a job sooner then you. Would I ever do it? No, but many do and no one gets caught.

Oh wait everyone knows someone who knows some guy who went in for a commercial checkride and had a bunch of time in the examiners plane logged. This is a true story I sware.

 

[Bluestreak]

While he may not have falsified his log book,what if one of these people who knew this clown would have talked to the feds about him ? Four innocent people would still be alive:


NTSB Identification: ATL07FA077
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, April 22, 2007 in Hamilton, GA
Aircraft: Beech 58, registration: N5647C
Injuries: 5 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On April 22, 2007, about 1451 eastern daylight time, a Beech BE-58, N5647C, registered to Renaissance Aircraft Management LLC, operating as a 14 CFR Part 91 personal flight, broke up in flight in the vicinity of Hamilton, Georgia. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The airplane was destroyed. The private pilot and 4 passengers were fatally injured. The flight originated from Jack Edwards Airport, Gulf Shores, Alabama, at about 1300 central daylight time.

A witness stated he was in his boat fishing in a lake in the vicinity of his home. He heard an airplane approaching his location from the southeast to the northwest. It sounded as if the pilot was performing some acrobatic maneuvers. The witness looked up and could not see the airplane. The engine noise continued to increase in intensity and the witness observed the airplane to the north of the lake heading northwest. The airplane was high and descending very fast in a 45 to 60 degree nose down attitude. The witness stated he observed a wing or part of the tail separate from the airplane in the vicinity of Hamilton Mulberry Grove Road. He immediately went to his boat dock and to his home and called the 911 emergency operators to report the accident.

A motorist approached a Georgia State Patrol Officer at the accident scene and informed the Officer that he was a friend of the deceased pilot. He further informed the officer that he was planning on purchasing an airplane from the pilot, and the pilot was going to use the money from the sale of the airplane to purchase the Beech 58 that he was flying at the time of the accident. The motorist further stated that the accident pilot "flying skills were below his standards because the pilot was known for overstressing the planes he flew." The motorist further stated from having flown with him and he made a statement to a friend about three weeks ago that the accident pilot would probably crash an airplane within the next year.

A friend of the pilot stated the pilot was in his shop on Friday, April 20, 2007, before he departed to Gulf Shores, Alabama on a fishing trip in his Beech 58. The friend informed the pilot, "That he thought he was stupid and not to do anything in the airplane that would get him hurt." The pilot stated, "I think I can roll this airplane." The friend stated, "The pilot had been at Sun N' Fun in Lakeland, Florida, during the week and had observed a performer rolling a Beech 18, and the deceased pilot just kept the rolling issue in his head." The friend stated the pilot had flown with a retired airline pilot, who owns a Beech 55, and the pilot had rolled the airplane with the deceased pilot as a passenger.

Another friend of the deceased pilot stated, he was in the right front seat of the airplane on April 19, 2007, on a return flight from Sun N' Fun in Lakeland, Florida, with two other passengers in the back seats. They departed Lakeland, Florida, and the pilot climbed to an initial cruising altitude of 9, 500 feet. The autopilot was on and the airplane was cruising at 220 knots. The pilot climbed to 10,500 feet to see if they could get a better ground speed and eventually descended back down to 9,500 feet. A short time later, the pilot stated, "I want to try something." The pilot rolled the airplane to the left side, and then back to the right side with the autopilot off and stated, "I believe its possible to roll this airplane."

The pilot pushed down on the control yoke, initiated a descent, and turned the airplane to the left, pulled back on the control yoke, and the airplane went up and over to the right like a spiral until the airplane was in a knife-edge attitude. The friend of the pilot stated he did not know what airspeed they obtained while the pilot was performing this maneuver and stated, " It got me out of my comfort zone, and I could not handle it." The friend stated he grabbed the flight controls, leveled the airplane, and stated to the pilot, "I can not do this." The pilot replied, "I believe it is possible to roll this airplane." The pilot descended down to 7,500 feet and leveled off in cruise flight, and there was no further discussion about rolling the airplane. A short time later, the pilot pulled the power back on the right engine, feathered the propeller, and they continued towards Griffin, Georgia, in cruise flight. The pilot started the engine, and they made their decent and landing at Griffin.


The others knew he was dangerous and said nothing.Now 4 people died as a result.