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Fallout from an age 60-Rule change

  • Thread starter Thread starter benelli
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benelli

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Posts
20
I'm not old, and I'm not wise, but I have learned my lessons. Let the hot air flow!
Back before SWA I worked for a carrier in a 3 person cockpit. I was in the right seat. The panel seat was occupied by a mix of super senior "I Ain't goin no where" 60+ guys, and super junior guys. Post 911, things went from Utopian to "Bagdadish". Furloughs began almost immediately with the hardest hit category being the junior guys on the panel. I can't tell you how many times I flew with guys on their last trip. Houses and cars would be sold to make ends meet. The wife would go back to work. The optimism of these guys was amazing considering the challenges which lay ahead. I would also fly with the 60+ guys on the panel and often, on the longer legs, our discussions would turn to the furloughs and the future health of the company. I would ask these guys if they thought, by them retiring, a younger guys job could be saved. Their response was almost always the same.."Ask someone who cares." or "It's part of this business". I asked them if they thought having an older guy like themselves retire while keeping the less expensive junior guy would save the company some hard needed cash. They knew where I was coming from and their F-U stare said it all. 6 months later my turn on the furlough list came.

I now sit at the bottom of another seniority list, this time at SWA. I'll preface my continuing rant by saying I love this company. It reminds me of the golden days at my old carrier .."The last job you will ever have." I feel honored to be here. I do not think though, for one second, that this company is infallible. Good companies make big mistakes, mistakes which can affect their financial stability. SWA is about to make one, affecting every pilot from the top down.

COSTS COSTS COSTS.
We hear it every day. Do what ever you can to control costs and save money. Our two biggest costs are fuel and payroll. Months ago I had the privilege of meeting Gary Kelly. I also had the opportunity to ask him a question. My question was whether or not he felt our pay was justified considering the direction the rest of the industry was heading. He said yes, as long as we BECAME more productive. He implied that each pilot would have to do more if we are to keep things the way the are. PILOT PRODUCTIVITY JUSTIFIES OUR PAY AND MAKE US PROFITABLE. After he said that I thought immediately about our pilot group and what, if any, impact a 65 retirement age would have on our productivity and in turn our pay and benefits. By changing the retirement age to 65 are we making the pilot group more or less productive? Are we going to make the company more or less profitable?

The Fallout!!!!!!!!!!

Two companies are at the forefront of the push to change the age 60 rule, Southwest and Jet Blue. SWA have a relatively old pilot group with a large number of age 60 retirements expected over the next 5 years. Jet Blue has a relatively young group with very few retirements over the next 5 years. Which airline will be most impacted by a change in the 60 rule. You guessed it....SWA. The question is, how will it be impacted and how will it affect our competitive edge in an industry where pennies make a difference?
Productivity: As pilots age we tend to be less productive. We work less, get sick more often, and account for a large percentage of the disability claims. The older and more senior you are, the more expensive you are to employ. The higher the average age of your pilot group, the more costly you are. It's why furloughs don't make companies profitable. You get rid of the young guys while keeping the older guys. The end result is drop in productivity and a skyrocket in the average cost per pilot. To offset this, management immediately goes for the quick fix..pay cuts. They don't work because then you have bred discontent, which in turn negates any benefit a pay cut would have wrought. Only by holding down the average age of an employee group are you able to control costs. SWA model was built on this. It's what worked in the past. Continued growth helps keep the fresh blood flowing and the average pay per employee down. It keeps people motivated by advancement instead of stagnation, stagnation which breeds discontent . It keeps them optimistic about the future. It's one of the reasons I came to this company..the expectation of advancement. I came here to contribute and to be a captain.
Months ago I approached SWAPA with my thoughts on their campaign to change the age 60 rule. I talked about a potential halting of retirements for the next 5 years and the affect it would have on advancement and moral. I talked to them about the possibility of declining productivity if over the next 5 years we retained the 700-800 guys that would have retired had the age stayed at 60, instead of hiring 700-800 new guys from the military, commuters, and furloughed pilot ranks. "Well" came the reply, we are growing so 700-800 guys won't really make a difference. I them asked him what would happen if growth stopped, and my response was a blank stare. I asked them about the companies plans to counter the potential decline in productivity, instead of the increase Mr. Kelly said was required to justify our present pay rates. Response..."Our pilots are different. They will be just as productive in their +60 years as they were in their -60 years." That's when the light bulb came on. IT'S ALL ABOUT THEM. Them being the few. Them that pull the strings. Them that polished this turd and sold it to the entire SWA pilot group while almost every other carrier voted NO to a change in the age 60 rule(hmmmmmm). And what will the fallout of this rule change be?
SWA will see it's productivity decline to a point where even our present increases will not be enough to sustain our present contract. More productivity will be asked by management which will again be unattainable. Health care costs will rise as claims increase. Disability costs will increase as claims increase. Payroll will increase as fewer new hires are required because of the retention of the +60 group. As these costs rise, our profits will decline, which in turn will impact our stock price. The end result will be a company looking for an offset, and that offset will be pay and benefit cuts. At that point I wonder to myself if the feeling will be the same as it was at my old airline, looking at a guy who should have retired long ago at the height of his game, but instead chose to linger on at the expense of others. Time will tell.
 
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Benelli,

Great post!

At my airline they are softening the merger effects with talk of all the retirements in the next five years. Between AWA and AAA, 700+ pilots are set to retire by 2010. Because of this the Company has stated no furloughs and little effect on the pilot group from the merger. ALPA also has been telling us that the retirements will make the integration easier on the pilots.

If it is moved to 65, the whole picture changes. We may see mass furloughs of AWA pilots, seat loss, and career stagnation for everyone that survives the cuts.

Our MEC is being very quite about this because the majority of them support changing the age 60 rule.

Also, what about pilots that already retired that want to return to the left seat?

This is a mess.

If a pilot can fly to 65 - why not 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 or forever?

The line was set at 60 and everyone above me benefited from the rule. There is no reason to change it now that they are facing 60 with 3 ex wives, no cash, a boat, and a girlfriend with a nack for shopping.
 
benelli

great post. you are absolutely correct. the old guys have the most vacation. they get the most $/hour. they call in sick the most. they are the least productive pilots...and your company decided they wanted to keep them five more years. it's all because they are the ones who have the clout...doubt if they surveyed all your pilots this would have passed as a majority.

i'm sure most of your f.o.s feel the same as you...and probably some junior captains too...who want better seniority but now they will stagnate...it's all about the selfish old f....s
 
benelli said:
The end result will be a company looking for an offset, and that offset will be pay and benefit cuts.

How long you been at Southwest:beer: ?

Why would an airline that is making money want to cut pay & benefits and ruin a positive 34 + year relationship with its emplyoees? I personally don't think its going to happen... We would raise fares before any of this (your) doom and gloom would happen. We have pricing power, baby!!!
 
Cyclone said:
doubt if they surveyed all your pilots this would have passed as a majority.

I agree (mostly) with benelli, but FWIW a survey has been done and the majority want the change. Just because I (or you) don't agree with something doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.
 
SWA/FO said:
Why would an airline that is making money want to cut pay & benefits and ruin a positive 34 + year relationship with its emplyoees? I personally don't think its going to happen... We would raise fares before any of this (your) doom and gloom would happen. We have pricing power, baby!!!
I personally can't wait till SWA raises ticket prices....I hope it happens sooner than later.
 
Benelli,

Good analysis, along with the fact that the guys running SWAPA are usually the older guys with concerns about retirement and little concern about their relative seniority. But as life expectentcies get longer, and as modern health care increases the quality of life, many are coming to think the reasons for the age 60 rule have been pushed back several years. 60 was an arbitrary age, as 65 would be now, but a line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

If the age 60 rule is changed to 65, then I think it should be done slowly to decrease the impact on companies and pilot groups alike. For instance, having the age increase 1 year every other year. I agree It would be unfair for the largest generation currently in the business, the baby boomers, to get all the advantages of age 60, then all of the advantages of age 65. Furthermore, what would prevent recently retired, or about to retire pilots, from coming back once the age is increased? I would guess companies couldn't prevent them from coming back because of the laws banning age discrimination in hiring and employment? I know there could be provisions inserted in the bill to prevent that, but it would really be frustrating to the pilots there were 1 day away from the cutoff to not get the extra 5 years.

If age 65 is passed, I would hope it is phased in slowly over at least 10 years.
 
Benelli,

I think that your points are well taken.. I have to agree with you regarding the folks at SWAPA pushing this thing. I send quite a few emails out months ago regarding a 're-vote' after the Alpa results came out.. Anyway, the gist of what I got back from SWAPA was "well, we have already told congress what our feelings are on this.. so, we'd look pretty foolish if we found out otherwise now.."
I couldn't believe it..

"Yeah, I realize we are running the wrong memory items for this engine fire, but what the heck, we already started it.. lets just fake it and hope nobody notices.."

I hope that when this thing goes to congress they will be able to think this thing through a bit.. the fact that the FO has to be younger than 60 already smells to me.. If the age was a non-issue why has this been thrown in?!
 
Pig said:
Benelli,

Good analysis, along with the fact that the guys running SWAPA are usually the older guys with concerns about retirement and little concern about their relative seniority. But as life expectentcies get longer, and as modern health care increases the quality of life, many are coming to think the reasons for the age 60 rule have been pushed back several years. 60 was an arbitrary age, as 65 would be now, but a line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

If the age 60 rule is changed to 65, then I think it should be done slowly to decrease the impact on companies and pilot groups alike. For instance, having the age increase 1 year every other year. I agree It would be unfair for the largest generation currently in the business, the baby boomers, to get all the advantages of age 60, then all of the advantages of age 65. Furthermore, what would prevent recently retired, or about to retire pilots, from coming back once the age is increased? I would guess companies couldn't prevent them from coming back because of the laws banning age discrimination in hiring and employment? I know there could be provisions inserted in the bill to prevent that, but it would really be frustrating to the pilots there were 1 day away from the cutoff to not get the extra 5 years.

If age 65 is passed, I would hope it is phased in slowly over at least 10 years.
Sounds fair to me!
 
Nice, well thought out post.

First, if I was an FO I would certainly be against sr. 65. But since I am already a Captain I am sincerely neutral on the subject. I do think it has an air of discrimination to the existing rule. But if anyone cares about this it is because of money. No one is fooling anyone otherwise.

In regards to productivity, there is the assumption that the guys getting closer to retirement would give most away. I don't know if this is true. The guys that are fifty nine are rarely giving away. A matter of fact some pick up more knowing they are close to a pretty hefty pay cut. A very, very, very small percentage retire here with the mega multi millions. Those really are the guys that have been here 25 years or longer. Not many. So some feel the need to get it while they can.

You are correct in that it will cost more to hold on to the guys 5 more years for several reasons that we all know about. But its not as large of an issue as in some productivity issue that affects all of the pilots. Not even close. If it was an issue that would greatly affect the company, you wouldn't have the likes of Herb and Gary supporting the cause. And they do. Without reservation. They must see the value of holding on to our senior pilots.

I do understand both sides of this issue. Since I have gone from no-way to neutral, I wonder if thats because I could see me at 60 wondering why I have to leave now.
 
SWA/FO "Why would an airline that is making money want to cut pay & benefits and ruin a positive 34 + year relationship with its emplyoees? I personally don't think its going to happen... We would raise fares before any of this (your) doom and gloom would happen. We have pricing power, baby!!!"




Dammmnnn Dude, Wake up. It's called MONEY, when SWA stops making it where the hell do you think they will go. Raise prices you say, look at your prices on many of your routes compared to the rest of the carriers, I think you will find that your pricing power isnt as strong as you think. Look at Delta's positive relationship with its employees, If I remember the employees bought DAL a 767. I bet those guys wish they could get there money back now.

Before you get your panties in a wad, yes I agree SWA is a great place to work yada yada yada. BUT aviation has a long history of the mighty falling. your airplanes are getting older as is your pilot group. It could happen.

PS I'm not wishing failure on anyone, I've been furloughed twice so I know what it is like. I'm just being a realist.
 
m80drvr said:
Dammmnnn Dude, Wake up. It's called MONEY, when SWA stops making it where the hell do you think they will go. Raise prices you say, look at your prices on many of your routes compared to the rest of the carriers, I think you will find that your pricing power isnt as strong as you think. Look at Delta's positive relationship with its employees, If I remember the employees bought DAL a 767. I bet those guys wish they could get there money back now.

Before you get your panties in a wad, yes I agree SWA is a great place to work yada yada yada. BUT aviation has a long history of the mighty falling. your airplanes are getting older as is your pilot group. It could happen.

PS I'm not wishing failure on anyone, I've been furloughed twice so I know what it is like. I'm just being a realist.

This thread posted a great article on SWA's current situation. This might help in what SWA/FO was alluding to.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=66693
 
We are making money at the price of fares now......not a lot of carriers are. Now, that is pricing power. (below, a quote from the thread mentioned above)

"Although fare adjustments relate directly to customer price sensitivity, which must be carefully watched, the fare “headroom” provided by competitors increasing fares allows a chance for Southwest to potentially pocket as much as $2 billion annually if it were to restore it’s historical relative fare gap of 16 percent below the competition (rather than the 28 percent below performance of the second quarter 2005)."

For paycuts, we would have to lose lots of money. I mean lots of cash. Name one healthy (airline) company that has asked and gotten paycuts from its employees? None, most were near or in bankruptcy for that to happen. We would have to be near bankruptcy for this topic to come up and I don't see that happening.
 
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capt. megadeth said:
I personally can't wait till SWA raises ticket prices....I hope it happens sooner than later.

I can never understand this logic. At the current fare level we are MAKING A PROFIT. Perhaps your logic should be aimed at a carrier that is NOT making a profit, then maybe they will notice that if you charge $89 for a product that costs $100 to produce, you CAN'T MAKE A PROFIT.
 
canyonblue said:
I can never understand this logic. At the current fare level we are MAKING A PROFIT. Perhaps your logic should be aimed at a carrier that is NOT making a profit, then maybe they will notice that if you charge $89 for a product that costs $100 to produce, you CAN'T MAKE A PROFIT.
Well if SWA puts its fares up, unlike the unprofitable carriers you quote who may make a only minimal profit, SWA will make even more money! What's wrong with that?
 
canyonblue said:
I can never understand this logic. At the current fare level we are MAKING A PROFIT. Perhaps your logic should be aimed at a carrier that is NOT making a profit, then maybe they will notice that if you charge $89 for a product that costs $100 to produce, you CAN'T MAKE A PROFIT.

Exactly. Why should SWA raise ticket prices when they are making money? A very myopic view of the airline industry-"As soon as SWA raises prices, all the carriers can raise prices and make money too." They'll keep 'em low until 2 or 3 carriers are six feet under and only then think about raising fares. Why should WN care about the health of its competition?
 
SWA/FO said:
How long you been at Southwest:beer: ?

Why would an airline that is making money want to cut pay & benefits and ruin a positive 34 + year relationship with its emplyoees? I personally don't think its going to happen... We would raise fares before any of this (your) doom and gloom would happen. We have pricing power, baby!!!

That is soooooooooo ironic! That is what I said about my job at a Legacy Carrier about 6 years ago when I was new....I guess nothing last forever, make sure to have a backup plan!
 
SWA/FO said:
We are making money at the price of fares now......not a lot of carriers are. Now, that is pricing power. (below, a quote from the thread mentioned above)

"Although fare adjustments relate directly to customer price sensitivity, which must be carefully watched, the fare “headroom” provided by competitors increasing fares allows a chance for Southwest to potentially pocket as much as $2 billion annually if it were to restore it’s historical relative fare gap of 16 percent below the competition (rather than the 28 percent below performance of the second quarter 2005)."

For paycuts, we would have to lose lots of money. I mean lots of cash. Name one healthy (airline) company that has asked and gotten paycuts from its employees? None, most were near or in bankruptcy for that to happen. We would have to be near bankruptcy for this topic to come up and I don't see that happening.

You are out of control! Just the fact that SWA has someone as clueless as you in their employ should make the stock price go down. SWA cannot lose even ONE dollar. The instant SWA can't make a profit your stock will be permanently broken in the eyes of Wall Street. The TV talking heads will be on your pilot payscales like racoons on a can of beans. There is no shorter distance for an airline than from success to failure. You need to dump this attitude that your airline is impervious to problems. You need to tune into what this Benelli poster has to say. You had better hope open skies doesn't put a bunch of us legacy pilots out of work. Because in pretty short order all of us furloughed types will end up working for the US equivilent of Ryanair. Who, according to one of the latest AW&ST issues, eventually want to be able to offer airline tickets for free. I don't need a calculator to tell you tha even SWA can't compete with "free". Listen to Benelli, and learn.
 
Once again, I must state that I will gladly leave at 60 if Congress will pass a law granting accelerated Social Security and Medicare benefits to any employee arbitrarily forced to retire from their primary profession by a federal law.

Otherwise, I have a 7 year gap to cover if I get the water salute at 60 and I don't want to greet customers at Walmart waiting for medical coverage.

AKAAB
 

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