Fallout from an age 60-Rule change

[Jim Smyth]

Our discussion notwithstanding, you're going to leave at 60 under current conditions. I will be fighting to keep it that way.

Good luck, I will also keep fighting to change it!

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut. You can knock off this generation barrier crap anytime now. Reading your posts reminds me of some folks who are very opportunistic in their views and opinions. For many like myself I view the opportunists mentality just like a scab mentality.

Incidently those in your "generation" had a large part in negotiating our wonderful contract. Those in your generation willingly pay for training and jobs. Those in "your" generation willingly work for poverty wages with a sense of entitlement and SJS abound. I don't recall that happening years ago.

I would think looking back on history those in "my" generation did more to advance pay benefits and working conditions than many coming aboard today. In fact if we hadn't had so many of "your" generation prostituting themselves perhaps management wouldn't of run over all of us with a steamroller knowing no matter what and for how little they will have warm asses to fill the seats.

BTW, before you continue any tirade I don't care one way or another what happens to the age 60 deal. Makes no differnce to me financially or professionally.

Fair enough. I'm boring the sh1t out of myself as well. I also loath PFT. However, I don't think anyone from my generation thought that one up. I agree, plenty of pilots have engaged in it from my generation. I think we will fix that. What does SJS mean?

Regarding the "scab mentality" assertion: I am a worker in a "shop" with a senority system. There is a contingent of workers who want to short circuit my proper and established seniority progression by means of something outside the collective bargaining agreement. What would you term this mentality?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Fascinating Jim, you have thought of everything. I am guessing you are very fastidious and probably an allright person to fly with. (I am guessing too that I would go home from a trip with you exhausted from lectures on FMC technique and the like) I am certain you have exceeded my loftiest goals for myself in almost all aspects of personal and professional life (health, $, career progression, retirement) so don't take this as condescending. I think you personify the selfishness of this issue on the part of your pilot demographic. You indicate as much when you characterize SWAPA contract negotiation. Sure sec 6 is going to be a hard one to improve on for your group. Other SWA types, FOs to be correct, have theorized possible wage cuts in the future. And we know how work ethic is such a core value so don't look for any "soft time" type QOL extras, which have actually been denuded entirely from the passenger flying business. No, for sure this business has changed and it may even effect pilots' careers at SWA, yet you have no apprehension toward making a claim on five extra years at the top for yourself. A "bonus". Don't really need it, but it sure would be nice. The generation behind you will have to work as hard or harder for increasingly less in their careers and your solution to that is letting them work longer? Wow, you're a nice guy. Additionally, this claim that your health insurance issue is the tipping point really grates on me. You can find another job! If you retirement age pilots are so darn experienced and capable then it should be a good one. Matter of fact, if you can get yourself hired at Netjets, I believe they have comprehensive health benefits that are free! So you can keep that young wife of yours, and yourself, fit as a fiddle! That way while you are both out mountain biking and basking in the wealth and health of airline pilot retirement monies coupled with an exciting new career endeavor, you can think of how great the UAL furloughee is going to feel finally getting recalled because pilots retire at 60. Finally being able to get ulcers, chronic back pain, or other injuries treated because they have regular insurance now as a backstop to financial ruin. An artificially aged and tired spouse and kids can all get re-aclimated to life with health care like you have always had. You have a cute little chilling scenario where a health problem post age 60 wipes out your retirement monies. Scary to be sure, but let me ask you this: is that sort of thing any less scary for someone younger and furloughed without insurance? Please don't say its going to be less a problem for them because they have more time left to work and can make it up. This could be a sick child, are you going to tell me they can just have another? It follows your logic!

We have a somewhat "sinking ship" here Jim, do the "women and children" get the lifeboats, or do you need one just for you?

:beer:

That was a thing of beauty Flopgut!

BBB

 

[SWA/FO]

Other SWA types, FOs to be correct, have theorized possible wage cuts in the future.

NOT this FO.... Did you read any of the above posts? Maybe a probationary newhire from UAL thinks we will be cutting pay....But I think not (in my OPINION.)

~THE SWA/FO

 

[K. Marx]

People on here are understandably very wrapped up in how this will affect their specific career. But the real issue is safety and making it to retirement without a violation. Iam sure their will be all kinds of posts about exceptions to the rule, but that is all they are. Just go through any aircraft transition class with people in their late 50's and you will be even more convinced it will hurt safety. Most pilots toward the end of their career will admit it is much harder for them to learn anything new. But they don't seem to recognize their skill in the aircraft is also slipping (even tough it is obvious when they can barely stay awake, or unable to stay awake on all nighters). I have flown with numerous older ca's that say they want to go past 60 because they are as sharp as they ever were. I think they actually believe it. If there truly is no difference then 64 yr olds should be able to fly with 64 yr olds. Clearly their is some sort of acknowledgment their that there is an issue with older pilots. Funny thing is they wouldn't be able to fly with other 60+'s but could still fly with newhires (and even be checkairmen?). Great combination there, old guy who can't hardly fly anymore with a new guy that is unlikely to question him. One thing is for certain though, my workload is much higher when I am flying with a 58yr old with many thousands of hours in the plane than with a 48 yr old with 100 hrs in the plane. I believe the older guys just can't or refuse to see that they are slipping. It seems to be a pretty steep slide from around 55 to 60 in my experience. Can't wait to see how much of one it is from 60-65. This may not be pc, but it is how just about every fo and even most Captains I know feel after years of flying with different age groups. Most people 64 can't even drive anymore, though they also don't realize it. This is just an accident looking for a place to happen.

 

[SWA/FO]

Hey Flapgut or flopgut....

Do you know how to make paragraphs? Sure would make it easier to read your posts...

People might have a different perspective on this age 60 thing, if they worked for a "growth" company? Sure, everyone claims the JetBlue, AirTran and Southwest guys want this to past the most. Maybe that is a true statement.

Then some people claim its because we have no retirement....but, in my opinion it just might be that all these companies are GROWING and in the end it will not make a difference at those companies listed above. Plus, my fellow airmen working at JetBlue, AirTran and Southwest actually like going to work. That might factor in also. If you enjoy your work, you might want to do it longer... Not tapping that nest egg 5 years is/will be a good thing since we all need our money to last longer.

 

[lostplnetairman]

People on here are understandably very wrapped up in how this will affect their specific career. But the real issue is safety and making it to retirement without a violation. Iam sure their will be all kinds of posts about exceptions to the rule, but that is all they are. Just go through any aircraft transition class with people in their late 50's and you will be even more convinced it will hurt safety. Most pilots toward the end of their career will admit it is much harder for them to learn anything new. But they don't seem to recognize their skill in the aircraft is also slipping (even tough it is obvious when they can barely stay awake, or unable to stay awake on all nighters). I have flown with numerous older ca's that say they want to go past 60 because they are as sharp as they ever were. I think they actually believe it. If there truly is no difference then 64 yr olds should be able to fly with 64 yr olds. Clearly their is some sort of acknowledgment their that there is an issue with older pilots. Funny thing is they wouldn't be able to fly with other 60+'s but could still fly with newhires (and even be checkairmen?). Great combination there, old guy who can't hardly fly anymore with a new guy that is unlikely to question him. One thing is for certain though, my workload is much higher when I am flying with a 58yr old with many thousands of hours in the plane than with a 48 yr old with 100 hrs in the plane. I believe the older guys just can't or refuse to see that they are slipping. It seems to be a pretty steep slide from around 55 to 60 in my experience. Can't wait to see how much of one it is from 60-65. This may not be pc, but it is how just about every fo and even most Captains I know feel after years of flying with different age groups. Most people 64 can't even drive anymore, though they also don't realize it. This is just an accident looking for a place to happen.

You make a lot of statements but have no proof to back it up. I can say what I want too to make a point. But I have to then prove it! You have not proven it (or any of them).

Perhaps the pilot with 100 hours of experience is "more qualified" because they don't know anything! I personally know of a 50+ pilot who blew the younger guys away in Airbus initial training--that's computers folks!

It's not all about stereotypes. Not everyone at 50 is washed up. Not everyone at 60 is washed up.
And we all know of some who are younger than 50 who are washed up.

HR Diva

 

[ACAFool]

I personally know of a 50+ pilot who blew the younger guys away in Airbus initial training--that's computers folks!

It's not all about stereotypes. Not everyone at 50 is washed up. Not everyone at 60 is washed up.

HR Diva

Sounds like those exceptions to the rule Karl was talking about to me. I have been through initial training on many different ac and would strongly agree with Karl. The vast majority of them have a much harder time, and will actually admit it.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Sounds like those exceptions to the rule Karl was talking about to me. I have been through initial training on many different ac and would strongly agree with Karl. The vast majority of them have a much harder time, and will actually admit it.

Again, let's talk numbers, not your preconceived notions....

HR Diva

 

[ACAFool]

Again, let's talk numbers, not your preconceived notions....

HR Diva

Go ahead with your numbers then. Can you prove we are not right. We all see it, just some won't acknowledge it. People slow down in everything as they age. Their is no reason to think flying skills are exempt from this.

 

[capt_zman]

I just don't understand how people can think that just because you work for a GROWING company, that this has no effect. The entire airline labor cost model is based upon a fixed pay scale based upon seniority that terminates at 60. Please explain how this won't effect every airline, profitable or not.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Go ahead with your numbers then. Can you prove we are not right. We all see it, just some won't acknowledge it. People slow down in everything as they age. Their is no reason to think flying skills are exempt from this.

No, I asked YOU to prove the point. You just turned it around and demanded that I prove it.


HR Diva

 

[ACAFool]

No, I asked YOU to prove the point. You just turned it around and demanded that I prove it.


HR Diva

Conclusive studies have not been done yet. But again proof is in the flight deck every day we are out there. And again why would flying skills be exempt from aging. Besides the courts have already ruled the 60 rule is not discrimination. The rule stands at 60, so why would we need to prove anything to keep it.

 

[alaskaplt]

But again proof is in the flight deck every day we are out there. And again why would flying skills be exempt from aging.

I Absolutely can not agree more. And I too rarely talk to another fo that does not say the same thing.

 

[alaskaplt]

I just don't understand how people can think that just because you work for a GROWING company, that this has no effect. The entire airline labor cost model is based upon a fixed pay scale based upon seniority that terminates at 60. Please explain how this won't effect every airline, profitable or not.

Ofcourse it will affect it. To argue otherwise is ridiculous. Nearly anything has an affect on the finances. If it didn't affect the bottom line, one way or another, the companies would not have an opinion on the matter, because they would not care.