Falcon 900EX vs. G-IV SP

[LegacyDriver]

Compared to Embraers and G-Strings....Falcons are sh*t. Sorry.

 

[BoilerUP]

Runway overruns are the fault of the airplane how again?

Short of a brake failure, its almost ALWAYS the fault of the guys up front that any airplane goes off the runway - fast approach speeds, not touching down in the TDZ, not properly applying spoilers/lift dump per AFM, not applying maximum braking, not properly compensating for runway contamination, etc. TR isn't factored into certificated landing distances but of course, it helps...and could be the difference between stopping and not when you end up with a stupid pilot trick.

I know actual runway used on landing in our CJ2+ without reverse is greater than our old Citation II with TRs, but it doesn't have anything to do with the capability of the CJ to stop (it will) - its that idle/moderate reverse provides a smoother deceleration for our passengers than moderate/heavy braking.

 

[Kingairrick]

But running of the runway when you want to use that single one T/R your relying on to stop before hitting the grassy area is a factor, and a correlation for your paycheck .....

If you are relying on any thrust reverser, on any aircraft, to stop you "before hitting the grassy area," you have a pretty good chance of hitting it one day.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I don't think he's saying you rely on the T/R to stop in terms of factoring it in. He's referring to the fact that the stopping power of the brake/tire/ABS combo of the Falcon being poor/unreliable. So by default the T/R is all ya' really got (and all it does is make noise).

 

[Quimby]

Are the brakes on the DA-50/900's really that weak? I don't know, never flown either. I just have a hard time believing it's as bad as some say on here.

If the 50/900's needed more reversing/stopping power, I would have thought that Dassault would have put 3 TR's on the airplanes, or possibly modded them by now.

 

[con-pilot]

Are the brakes on the DA-50/900's really that weak? I don't know, never flown either. I just have a hard time believing it's as bad as some say on here.

If the 50/900's needed more reversing/stopping power, I would have thought that Dassault would have put 3 TR's on the airplanes, or possibly modded them by now.

No, they're not. It is just that some people become so brainwashed into believing that the aircraft they like the most, is superior to all other aircraft in spite of the actual facts.

I loved flying the 727, I really did, but does that mean it is the greatest, most wonderful aircraft ever built, Hell no. Did the 727 have a faults, Hell yes.

I loved flying the Sabre 40 with the -8 engine, but were there better aircraft, yes.

Facts are that the Legacy cannot perform as well as the Falcon 900EX or the G-IVSP, let alone the Falcon 7X or the G-550 or the Global Express. It is not even an apples to oranges comparison, more like an elephant to a mouse.

 

[Quimby]

No, they're not. It is just that some people become so brainwashed into believing that the aircraft they like the most, is superior to all other aircraft in spite of the actual facts.

I loved flying the 727, I really did, but does that mean it is the greatest, most wonderful aircraft ever built, Hell no. Did the 727 have a faults, Hell yes.

I loved flying the Sabre 40 with the -8 engine, but were there better aircraft, yes.

Facts are that the Legacy cannot perform as well as the Falcon 900EX or the G-IVSP, let alone the Falcon 7X or the G-550 or the Global Express. It is not even an apples to oranges comparison, more like an elephant to a mouse.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Thanks for your input.

 

[fokkerjet]

And here is the kicker ...

How many Gulfstreams 4's ran of the end of the runway ? None.

Gulfstream IV G-GMAC originally departed Farnborough Airport (FAB), and flew uneventfully to Luton (LTN). At Luton the passenger boarded for the transatlantic flight to Teterboro (TEB). It arrived in the Teterboro area and was cleared for an ILS runway 19 approach, sidestep to land on runway 24. Although the airplane encountered a gusty right crosswind, the approach was less turbulent than the flightcrew expected. The airplane initially overshot the extended runway 24 centerline, but the airplane was stabilized at 1,000 feet agl. The auto throttle and autopilot were disengaged during the approach, about 800 feet agl. However, the auto throttle reengaged just prior to touchdown, about 35 feet agl. The airplane touched down within the first 2,000 feet of the runway, and slightly right of runway centerline. The crew were not aware that the auto throttle had reengaged. The target airspeed set for the auto throttle
system was 138 knots. After touchdown, as the airplane decelerated below 138 knots, the auto throttle system gradually increased the power levers in an attempt to maintain the target airspeed. Without the power levers in the idle position, the ground spoilers and thrust reversers would not deploy. While the flightcrew was pulling up on the thrust reverser levers, they may not have initially provided enough aft force on the power levers (15 to 32 lbs.) to override and disconnect the auto throttle system. The flight data recorder indicated that the autothrottle system disengaged 16 seconds after the weight-on-wheels switches were activated in ground mode. As the airplane neared the end of the runway, the pilot engaged the emergency brake, and the airplane departed the right side of the runway. The airplane then traveled over a grassy area, struck trees, and came to rest upright.

 

[Dizel8]

Compared to Embraers and G-Strings....Falcons are sh*t. Sorry.

Not again! How did it go WSCoD?

 

[semperfido]

yep, you got it

 

[rice]

And here is the kicker ...

How many Gulfstreams 4's ran of the end of the runway ? None.
How many F900 (or F50) ? Go look it up. Thats right. SINGLE engine thrust reverser. Any contaminated runway landing and those skinny tires on the Falcon make you slip and slide while your looking to stop it.
Hence quite a few flight departments left their Falcon 900 at the end of the runway and bought a Gulfstream 4 (or better).

That may cost you in fuel, but not in stopping power like from that one hair dryer engine in the middle on the Falcon
And without those slutty slats ....

Eric,
Why must you be such a tool???? As many here have shown, your G-IV data is inaccurate. Additionally, I challenge you to cite one instance where a DA-900 overran a runway where pilot error wasn't the primary cause of the event.
Yes, I will admit that Dassault's performance data does excessively penalize for contaminated (read icy) runways. But if one plans their arrival correctly then you would likely land at about 30,000 lbs. which equates to a Vref of 112 kts. Not difficult to get the plane stopped from that speed if you land within the touchdown zone. Also, while the T/R is not factored into the landing #'s, it is perfectly acceptable to use the T/R until completely stopped.

 

[LJ45]

http://www.jeff-betty.com/GIV-TEB/imagepages/image36.htm

dang, pretty far off the center line also!

 

[LegacyDriver]

The Embraer not only has way better brakes than the Falcon it is cheaper to operate, bigger, and more durable. As far as I'm concerned the Falcon is cheaply built and not particularly redundant. I will take two 3007s over three 731s. The Embraer will be flying while the Falcon is waiting for parts... The durability required by the ERJ to perform its mission makes your puny little purpose-built corporate jets look like windup toys. The Legacy is tougher, more reliable, and cheaper--and with a G-IV-sized cabin for the same cost as a Falcon 50. Like duh...

 

[LegacyDriver]

The ABS system on the Legacy alone is light years more advanced than the one on the Falcon (the Falcon's is twitchy because it makes dozens of adjustments a second; the EMBs is smooth because it makes 1000s of adjustments a second--this isn't "rocket surgery"). I can stand an EMB on its nose. Wet or dry, T/Rs or no T/Rs, the Embraer will stop better than the Falcon day in and day out.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Eric,
Why must you be such a tool???? As many here have shown, your G-IV data is inaccurate. Additionally, I challenge you to cite one instance where a DA-900 overran a runway where pilot error wasn't the primary cause of the event.
Yes, I will admit that Dassault's performance data does excessively penalize for contaminated (read icy) runways. But if one plans their arrival correctly then you would likely land at about 30,000 lbs. which equates to a Vref of 112 kts. Not difficult to get the plane stopped from that speed if you land within the touchdown zone. Also, while the T/R is not factored into the landing #'s, it is perfectly acceptable to use the T/R until completely stopped.

Agree.

While I dont think braking or power are the strongest traits of a DA900/731 Falcon, I really have concern over people who say they are difficult to fly or land. I cant imagine an easier plane to operate. I'd prefer TR's on icy runways yes, but I go with what Im given, and at times thats been a Falcon and guess what...it performed just fine.

Even the newest Falcons are simply that easy, minus typical buggy avionics issued shared with any Gxxx/GLEX etc that is brand new. Are any airplanes really that difficult for most of us?

In reality, most of us would be happy flying anything that had high QOL and paid well. Good luck with that on a Legacy/EMB POS. Please dont tell me about being able to make a whopping 90K flying in Saudi or F'n India or beautiful Jakarta. I will take my chances at a decent job with some Falcon/Gulfstream/GLEX time (115-200K+?) over that anyday...and yes, I will do it even if the Falcon is impossible to land in a crosswind....

Vive la France!!!

"Like, Duh"

 

[LegacyDriver]

Not me man. I will take lower pay and a Legacy any day of the week. Falcons are okay. Better than Cessnas any way. To me the Legacy itself is QOL. The airplane takes care of its crew better than anything I've flown so far. Other than a Lineage I don't imagine any other jet will do as well in that department and that is worth more than money to me. (And G200, I know half a dozen guys making well over $120K a year in the EMB here in the States--guys overseas do better still. That's a heck of a lot more than this non-Legacy pays me, and more than the Falcon did.)

 

[BoilerUP]

I will take lower pay and a Legacy any day of the week.

To me the Legacy itself is QOL. The airplane takes care of its crew better than anything I've flown so far. Other than a Lineage I don't imagine any other jet will do as well in that department and that is worth more than money to me.

Dear God, its unrequited love....for an airplane.

Also, ARG/US shows the Legacy 600 costs more to operate both per-hour DOC and trip expense over a 1000nm segment than any current 2000 or 900 series Falcon, and is only $30/hr less than the 7X, which beats the Legacy in trip expense over 1000nm by $300+.

But you're right, it does have shorter landing distances...

 

[2EASYPilot]

Not me man. I will take lower pay and a Legacy any day of the week. Falcons are okay. Better than Cessnas any way. To me the Legacy itself is QOL. The airplane takes care of its crew better than anything I've flown so far. Other than a Lineage I don't imagine any other jet will do as well in that department and that is worth more than money to me. (And G200, I know half a dozen guys making well over $120K a year in the EMB here in the States--guys overseas do better still. That's a heck of a lot more than this non-Legacy pays me, and more than the Falcon did.)

I assume this is all being said as a joke right....

 

[LegacyDriver]

No joke. When it is 120 degrees outside and I'm nice and comfortable in my Legacy cockpit vs sweating my a** off in a Falcon or Cessna the paycheck doesn't make up for the misery.
There is no way a 7X beats the EMB in operating cost. Gawd help you the first time something breaks on your Frogjet (and trust me it will).

 

[2EASYPilot]

No joke. When it is 120 degrees outside and I'm nice and comfortable in my Legacy cockpit vs sweating my a** off in a Falcon or Cessna the paycheck doesn't make up for the misery.
There is no way a 7X beats the EMB in operating cost. Gawd help you the first time something breaks on your Frogjet (and trust me it will).[/QUOT


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