Fair Seniority Integration Concept, your ideas requested

[Uniform Shop]

The windfall inevitably though is for the more senior people which is the framework for the entire seniority system. It is a merger and as such there are winners and losers unfortunately. If you have a system based on seniority though I don't see why the 30yr guy should benefit less then 10yr guy.

If both airlines are in the same exact situation when they merge than a DOH could possibly work but unfortunately that is never the case. That's why it never works and hasn't been done in decades.

Trust me, I wish DOH was the policy because I would have made out like a bandit at AA but it is what it is. (relative seniority would have been nice though. )

If you end up with a lower seniority number but gain in pay or other working condition benefits, then does your seniority number really matter?

Yeah more than anything. It's vacation, working weekends, bidding aircraft, bidding efficient trips and just about everything else that comes with this job.

 

[Andy]

How about this idea:

1) Lists are integrated by relative seniority (bear with me for a second)

2) In addition, you tally up what percentage you currently need to hold certain position at your current company based on your current position #. Say 15% for widebody Capt, 40 % for midbody Capt, etc.

So, if you need 15 % seniority to hold widebody capt at Delta(original company), When you finally reach 15% seniority based on this Delta seniority (not the merged seniority) you bid widebody Capt. Then, if you are not awarded widebody Capt at that time, the company will still be required to pay you at Widebody rates, unless you don't bid widebody capt.

This idea basically solves the pay issue if MGT will agree to it.

Granted, if you were supposed to be able to fly the 787 in 5 years as Capt, you might not actually get to do that, but at least you would be getting paid as if you did.

I would bet the amount of people actually affected would still be minimal, and would bridge the gap in time until you can actually hold widebody capt.

In addition, not everybody "wants" to fly widebodies. There are plenty of guys out there working for Delta and NWA who could fly mid or widebody capt, but prefer the type of flying in narrowbodies.

This puts the onus back on management and increases pay for everyone involved, since I would argue that is the biggest problem with mergers; people are afraid it will affect their wallets.

Any comments on this idea?

So I could sit there as a DC-9/MD-80/737/A320 FO and get paid as a widebody captain if I'm in the top 25%? SIGN ME UP. Holding number 1 in my fleet/seat/domicile and getting paid the same amount as if I were the junior reserve guy.

Your seniority buys you two things. Money and QOL. You can trade off QOL and bid higher for more money. Or you can trade off money to have a higher QOL. Unless you're number one, you have to trade one off for the other.
Your system would allow you to get the money without sacrificing QOL. It's not going to happen.
Companies made an exception allowing bypasses for those that would only have a year in another seat prior to retirement - saving the company training money - but they're not going to do this for the entire seniority list.

 

[justin15e]

So I could sit there as a DC-9/MD-80/737/A320 FO and get paid as a widebody captain if I'm in the top 25%? SIGN ME UP. Holding number 1 in my fleet/seat/domicile and getting paid the same amount as if I were the junior reserve guy.

Your seniority buys you two things. Money and QOL. You can trade off QOL and bid higher for more money. Or you can trade off money to have a higher QOL. Unless you're number one, you have to trade one off for the other.
Your system would allow you to get the money without sacrificing QOL. It's not going to happen.
Companies made an exception allowing bypasses for those that would only have a year in another seat prior to retirement - saving the company training money - but they're not going to do this for the entire seniority list.

I don't know if you understood my whole post. I said you would have to bid widebody Capt in order to get the widebody Capt pay. This would assume you are attempting to hold the highest position possible. Therefore, under this idea, you wouldn't be able to get the Widebody capt pay unless you were a midbody Capt waiting for the slot for widbody capt.

If you were an FO, and won't even bid narrow or midbody Capt, then this bonus wouldn't apply to you.

Here's the deal, there's a lot of people out there who bitch and moan about career expectations about how they won't be able to hold widbody capt with merger idea X. Well, with this plan, it would help those people who "really" would bid widebody Capt as soon as possible and are already in the Next lowest position (ie midbody Capt). Then, when the slot actually opens up, they get the slot and their pay matches up with what they fly.

My guess is that it would cost the company a little bit more, but not that much more. In this way, your QOL would still be based off the integrated seniority list, but as long as you bid the highest position you could hold, your pay would match what it would have had your previous carrier never merged. It's a tradeoff, but again, it gives the pilot the option to make the choice to choose the better QOL, or go for the money. If the person chooses to stay a 20 yr FO, they get paid as a 20 yr FO, not a widebody Capt.

Make sense?

 

[pkober]

HA-HA How's it going? You ready for this again?

No. We're in the bottom 3rd of the seniority list what can possibly go wrong?

 

[LandGreen]

DOH is the only fair way to go. And the easiest.

so the NW guys will get 30% better pay, WAY better work rules, better B fund retirement, WAY more widebody paying seats, and WAY better choices of domiciles, and last but not least....DOH.

someone needs a drug test!

BTW. the DAL pilots will get....what?

 

[MCDU]

NWA pilots understand that seniority is not for sale.
DOH with fences and protections like the old days.

Marty

 

[michael707767]

NWA pilots understand that seniority is not for sale.
DOH with fences and protections like the old days.

Marty

How did that work for the USAir pilots?

ALPA policy does not mention DOH. Live with it.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Obviously FAIR is in the eye of the beholder. Delta and lets say JB,AAI, or even skybus the delta or NWA guys would not like relative seniority and insist on doh. Otoh, anyone with Usair east would not want doh and insist on relative seniority. I still believe that dal/nw are still like enough airlines that a negotiated list that protects the dal pilots current positions while protecting our future advancement can be achieved. With that we can all be pissed and if we are smart turn our collective anger towards mgmt. and start the rebuilding of the profession.

 

[FBN0223]

NWA pilots understand that seniority is not for sale.
DOH with fences and protections like the old days.

Marty

I'll agree with that 100%.

 

[Noserider76]

How does relative seniority protect anyone when the fleets do not match?

Should DC-9 pilots displace 767 pilots? Should 767 Captains displace 747 Captains?

I don't think you have to worry about being displaced unless airplanes are retired. No bump/flush will be part of any negotiated settlement.

In regards to airplane retirements, DL guys have a long memory of getting Pan Am's old 727s. The question was raised that these were some of the oldest 727s around, what happens if DL sheet cans them? Management said, "Oh don't worry, we're growing." Sure enough, the economy went south and many DL guys hit the street when those airplanes disappeared. Any agreement will have to address that possibility in the future as well.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Obviously FAIR is in the eye of the beholder. Delta and lets say JB,AAI, or even skybus the delta or NWA guys would not like relative seniority and insist on doh. Otoh, anyone with Usair east would not want doh and insist on relative seniority. I still believe that dal/nw are still like enough airlines that a negotiated list that protects the dal pilots current positions while protecting our future advancement can be achieved. With that we can all be pissed and if we are smart turn our collective anger towards mgmt. and start the rebuilding of the profession.

Quoted for emphasis!

There are few opportunities for us as a profession to make significant improvements in one stride. This is one of them. All it will take is for us to do something we're not good at: negotiating with pilots instead of management.

There's a deal to be had here that's equally stinky for EVERYBODY that also just happens to benefit everybody.

 

[propdog]

Quoted for emphasis!

There are few opportunities for us as a profession to make significant improvements in one stride. This is one of them. All it will take is for us to do something we're not good at: negotiating with pilots instead of management.

There's a deal to be had here that's equally stinky for EVERYBODY that also just happens to benefit everybody.

I totally agree. I wonder if the union negotiators are back at the table? No news from the union side at all. No more leaks...nothing...I guess no news is good news.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Weeeeeell. We haven't sent negotiators. We sent in a Merger Committee. There's a difference.

Our Merger Committee doesn't have an experienced negotiator in the group. We're up to our necks in Arbitration experts...but this is a different task. We need to move the DAL guys off the dime, and get them to look forward. That will require a process that looks, smells, and sounds like "negotiation".

We've got the angry, arms-folded schtick down cold. Now we need to develop a way to coax the timid animal over to our side...so we can club it like a baby Harp seal! <--that last part's a joke!

 

[Gunfighter]

We need to move the DAL guys off the dime, and get them to look forward.

DAL guys need to move?

Opening with "I'll take the top 500 and staple the bottom 3,000" was a poor negotiation tactic. It galvanized the DAL pilot group against any resonable offer that may follow.

Opening with something closer to reasonable would have been a much better start. The DAL group is probably tempted to go just as far off center toward their favor. How about 2 for 1 integration since DAL has 2x the widebody airframes. It seems fair after that kind of opener.

 

[Occam's Razor]

DAL guys need to move?

Oops! My bad! Thanks for catching that! They do NOT have to move. They must move only if they want to the deal to go through.

If they don't...holding tight will work just fine.

Opening with "I'll take the top 500 and staple the bottom 3,000" was a poor negotiation tactic.

Good thing that wasn't the Opener!

It galvanized the DAL pilot group against any resonable offer that may follow.

Ooopsie! Did you really mean to type that the DAL pilots would reject "any reasonable offer"?

So "reasonable" is unrealistic? Unfair? Dirty Pool?

Methinks we've spotted the problem!

How about 2 for 1 integration since DAL has 2x the widebody airframes.

Cool! I'll call the UAL or AAA MEC and you can get right on that.

 

[jkkdca]

This is the kind of thinking from the NWA side that DALPA is trying to avoid. Division among the pilot groups has been the M.O. for a long time and creates nothing but friction. Fences, your different from him and I'm different from you does not work to unify a pilot group and never will. When this deal is done, we will all be Delta pilots, period. You will gain or lose no more than 1-2% of your relative seniority in the new company.

I won't call you green or red or blue book; I will call you a delta pilot. I hope this is how it happens.

 

[filejw]

Or how about a 7 to 5 ratio? That would allow the DAL pilots to protect their win-fall of early retirements. Then allow the NWA pilots to move up the ratio so that they too can gain the benifits of the senior NWA retirements equal to the point where DAL pilots left early.Or maybe just DOH with fences.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

6 pages and still nobody has debunked the Thunderdome Seniority Cage Fight.