Fair Seniority Integration Concept, your ideas requested

[General Lee]

HA HA HA.... glad you hd a sense of humor. I was hoping you wouldn't take my post the wrong way.

6'4"??? You'd easily take out 15 to 20 people when you hit the canvas. Much like a giant redwood falling and taking any and everybody on its way down.

I don't take this board that seriously. That is of course, when I am not crying in the corner! And I think you are right, I would GAIN an extra 20 spots when I roll over those darn DC9 guys after I am thrown to the ground! Su-wheat!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bacardi]

Are you kidding me? I am 6'4" and 120 lbs. They call me "Learch." I would knock some serious heads together, and I bet I would atleast have 15 or 20 people behind me......total......


Bye Bye--General Lee

6'4" and 120lbs I would call you toothpick! sounds like you should eat

 

[Andy]

6'4" and 120lbs I would call you toothpick! sounds like you should eat

That was a typo. He's 4'6" and 210lbs.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

6'4" and 120lbs I would call you toothpick! sounds like you should eat

With over 10,000 posts, who has time to eat!!!!!

 

[Turtle21]

Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen

... a stapler as an avatar and you speak of "balance".

 

[~~~^~~~]

Turtle - I've been an advocate of getting ALL flying on the mainline list. That means getting the Comapanaicle carriers on too. The staple is for them.

In fact, I'd be much more positive about this merger if Compass and Mesaba were on the list instead of having a bilateral flow through that doesn't flow either direction.

 

[DashTrash400]

Turtle - I've been an advocate of getting ALL flying on the mainline list. That means getting the Comapanaicle carriers on too. The staple is for them.

In fact, I'd be much more positive about this merger if Compass and Mesaba were on the list instead of having a bilateral flow through that doesn't flow either direction.

Sign me up! I'd gladly take a staple to get the 76 seaters at mainline... time to end the whipsaw.

--A compass pilot

 

[FDJ2]

I was reviewing the DAL seniority list the other day nd I noticed oddly enough the the name of the most junior pilot was Staples.

I thought, well there is an interesting idea.


Just kidding about the idea, not the name. The name really was Staples.

Although that may have changed recently, we had over 30 new hires last week so Staples is no longer the plug.

If there is a merger, things will work out one way or another. The best result is with a negotiated pre nup and contractual gains sooner rather than later, but if we have to go down the arbitration route, well then we have to. Lately that's resulted in preserving relative seniority on similar gauge equipment. I can live with that. We'll see what happens.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

National Seniority List.

The day you get your ATP Certificate is your date of hire for bidding purposes.

Go ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, DAPA, CRAPA, APA, run with it.


-NYB

as long as this list starts at the end of the FDX seniority list

 

[landlover]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Style.

Everybody meet up in either MSP or ATL, lock yourselves in a hangar, and go at it. Last guy standing is Seniority #1, First guy to get his ass kicked (Probably General Lee ) is the last guy on the seniority list.

awesome idea!

 

[landlover]

National Seniority List.

The day you get your ATP Certificate is your date of hire for bidding purposes.

Go ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, DAPA, CRAPA, APA, run with it.


-NYB

this is the way most unions work. i think its a good idea. at first it would be a mess, but over time it would make the pilot union stronger. instead of all these small little shops, it could be one big power house.

example gran pappy was a union ironworker in nyc, every year he got a raise no matter what job he was on. the union actually found him work when a job ended.

 

[Turtle21]

National Seniority List.

The day you get your ATP Certificate is your date of hire for bidding purposes.

Go ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, DAPA, CRAPA, APA, run with it.


-NYB

This is the answer. To implement it all we have to do is make it effective immediately for any pilots hired after today. All pilots hired before today are senior and use the previous seniority list, all pilots hired today and after are junior and use the new list. Problem fixed... 30 years from now.:beer:

 

[Ben Franklin]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the best integration method available to us:

a straight merger of the lists based on Date Of Birth.
:beer:


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bump.

Seems more relevant this week.

If SLI is still an impasse - has this got any chance?

 

[737 Pylt]

Bump.

Seems more relevant this week.

If SLI is still an impasse - has this got any chance?

I was wondering the same thing. How about the prospect that UAL is still interested if NWA isn't?!

737

 

[ferlo]

relative seniority is the only fair method. You get what you came into it with. the end.

 

[~~~^~~~]

How does relative seniority protect anyone when the fleets do not match?

Should DC-9 pilots displace 767 pilots? Should 767 Captains displace 747 Captains?

I like the plan submitted because it blends your relative seniority with soft fences that allow the pilots the choice of when to use their system seniority to bid into new equipment.

 

[FDJ2]

How does relative seniority protect anyone when the fleets do not match?

Should DC-9 pilots displace 767 pilots? Should 767 Captains displace 747 Captains?

I like the plan submitted because it blends your relative seniority with soft fences that allow the pilots the choice of when to use their system seniority to bid into new equipment.

Just to put it in perspective, only 13% of NWA pilots are wide bodied captains with lower hourly rates then DAL wide bodied captains. Whereas 29% of DAL pilots are in wide bodied captain positions. On a percentage basis, DAL brings over twice as many wide bodied captain positions.

Strict relative seniority would make more wide bodied positions available to NWA pilots and more narrow bodied positions available to DAL pilots.

 

[Pilotbob3]

DOH is the only fair way to go. And the easiest.

 

[ferlo]

DOH is the only fair way to go. And the easiest.

That's certainly the delusion the USAPA SCABS are under.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

That's certainly the delusion the USAPA SCABS are under.

??? Did somebody cross a picket line to perform struck work?

I do know that the AWA management did support some of the AWA pilots scabbing at Ansett Airlines a few years ago.

Now those are "for real" scabs, who did cross a picket line to keep an airline flying....

...or do you define them in a different manner?

 

[~~~^~~~]

True - USAPA pilots might be short sighted and a little dumb, but they are not scabs.

 

[kwick]

Date of hire, with fences, if required. Quit trying to re-invent the wheel. In time, DOH assures fairness.

 

[Uniform Shop]

Date of hire, with fences, if required. Quit trying to re-invent the wheel. In time, DOH assures fairness.

Everyone talks about DOH and that simply doesn't exist anymore and the reason is because it doesn't work.

When was the last true DOH merger between two major airlines? Fences or no fences it usually creates a windfall gain for one pilot group.

 

[AC560]

When was the last true DOH merger between two major airlines? Fences or no fences it usually creates a windfall gain for one pilot group.

The windfall inevitably though is for the more senior people which is the framework for the entire seniority system. It is a merger and as such there are winners and losers unfortunately. If you have a system based on seniority though I don't see why the 30yr guy should benefit less then 10yr guy.

I think the more relevant points people should worry about are the specifics of the contract itself. What good does it do to be the top guy, if in exchange for that you give up scope or pay. If you end up with a lower seniority number but gain in pay or other working condition benefits, then does your seniority number really matter?

 

[pkober]

National Seniority List.

The day you get your ATP Certificate is your date of hire for bidding purposes.

Go ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, DAPA, CRAPA, APA, run with it.


-NYB

What about pilot who crossed airline strike lines? They shouldn't be rewarded for that behavior (past or future).

 

[pkober]

Everyone talks about DOH and that simply doesn't exist anymore and the reason is because it doesn't work.

When was the last true DOH merger between two major airlines? Fences or no fences it usually creates a windfall gain for one pilot group.

You were aquired not hired!

Waz up, bud?

 

[Uniform Shop]

You were aquired not hired!

Waz up, bud?

HA-HA How's it going? You ready for this again?

 

[Andy]

relative seniority is the only fair method. You get what you came into it with. the end.

The problem with appying relative seniority to NWA/DAL is that a large percentage of DAL's senior pilots retired prior to the pension going away. As a result, DAL's pilots saw rapid progression while NWA did not have a large number of senior pilots retire.

The way that I would compensate for this is to take each company's list as of 10 Sep 01 and integrate that by relative seniority (obviously throwing out retirees). This would keep DAL's pilots from gaining a windfall due to upcoming NWA retirements.
Any pilot hired after 9/11 would go by date of hire.

Relative seniority integration would screw NWA's pilots.

No systemwide rebidding; the only new bids would be due to vacancies.
No fences; they're counterproductive for pilot unity.


I see too much of a cultural clash between the two pilot groups to make this work. Cobra Air mixing with double breasted skygods. Blue collar boyz mixing with the Marie Antonette crowd. What a combo.

 

[justin15e]

How about this idea:

1) Lists are integrated by relative seniority (bear with me for a second)

2) In addition, you tally up what percentage you currently need to hold certain position at your current company based on your current position #. Say 15% for widebody Capt, 40 % for midbody Capt, etc.

So, if you need 15 % seniority to hold widebody capt at Delta(original company), When you finally reach 15% seniority based on this Delta seniority (not the merged seniority) you bid widebody Capt. Then, if you are not awarded widebody Capt at that time, the company will still be required to pay you at Widebody rates, unless you don't bid widebody capt.

This idea basically solves the pay issue if MGT will agree to it.

Granted, if you were supposed to be able to fly the 787 in 5 years as Capt, you might not actually get to do that, but at least you would be getting paid as if you did.

I would bet the amount of people actually affected would still be minimal, and would bridge the gap in time until you can actually hold widebody capt.

In addition, not everybody "wants" to fly widebodies. There are plenty of guys out there working for Delta and NWA who could fly mid or widebody capt, but prefer the type of flying in narrowbodies.

This puts the onus back on management and increases pay for everyone involved, since I would argue that is the biggest problem with mergers; people are afraid it will affect their wallets.

Any comments on this idea?