Fair and Equitable??????

[nwaredtail]

8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That poor dead horse.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point.

Unless you are a 757/767 pilot, a common category and the largest category in the Company.

.... and NWA's attorney tells the board that our Contract does not matter because what they award will supercede our working agreement. So, adios furlough and job protection provisions.

 

[PuffDriver]

8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.

My advice is that you read today's testimony, which goes a LONG way towards rebutting NWAs ideas IMO. LIke it or not, it DOES matter that you got instant pay raises which Delta didn't. That WILL and should be reflected in the award. Likewise, your guys do NOT all retire off of the top of the list. That matters. Likewise, when your guys move up the dynamic list, they move up in a COMBINED airplane system with access to more large aircraft than the NWA-only system. At the same time, Delta pilots are pushed down disproportionately due to the large system than they were in the smaller Delta-only system. Delta will resist long fences ala NWA proposal due to the synergies via the combined system with no restrictions.

In short, your teams numbers have been shot down with plain ole math instead of your fuzzy math. We can project lists out until everyone on the property today retires, but it has never been done that way. Your sides fault in logic, which it has had from the start is that they try and use the numbers from a combined list, when it is really about jobs brought to the merger. AKA fuzzy math. It wasn't unintentional, and indeed all along has been about NWA gaining at the detriment of the Delta pilots.

It ain't gonna happen, IMO. You were wrong about the merger, you were wrong about the intent of LOA 19, and you will be wrong about this arbitration-- I would guess from reading the tea leaves. What ends up being a fair integration will look much like the Delta pilots envision more than what the NWA pilots envision. Disclaimer: I could be wrong.

 

[nwaredtail]

[. LIke it or not, it DOES matter that you got instant pay raises which Delta didn't.That WILL and should be reflected in the award.

Wanna bet. Never been a deciding factor in any airline arbitration. Do some homework.

Likewise, when your guys move up the dynamic list, they move up in a COMBINED airplane system with access to more large aircraft than the NWA-only system.

I know, I know, those light twins y'all call widebodies.

At the same time, Delta pilots are pushed down disproportionately due to the large system than they were in the smaller Delta-only system

.

math not your strongest suit?


Whats your seniority number, I check things out for you

 

[nwaredtail]

Unless you are a 757/767 pilot, a common category and the largest category in the Company.

.... and NWA's attorney tells the board that our Contract does not matter because what they award will supercede our working agreement. So, adios furlough and job protection provisions.

Seniority number please, let me check your seniority progression for you.

 

[DTW320]

LIke it or not, it DOES matter that you got instant pay raises which Delta didn't. That WILL and should be reflected in the award.

I missed that part in the transcript....please provide a reference.

In short, your teams numbers have been shot down with plain ole math instead of your fuzzy math

Do you mean like this math?:

BY MR. KATZ:
Q. These numbers are taken right off
of Exhibit 29. These numbers appear on the
right side of each one of these charts and
one of our merger representatives which has
written them down for the sake of comparison
on the left side is the dot charts we've been
looking at with 100 Northwest pilots pulled.
And you can compare on the top part of the
page at 1,000 what was originally a ratio of
1.52 to one, 603 Delta, 397 Northwest, has
become 2.73 to one after ten years, 732 Delta
and 268 Northwest. It's just a different marker, a
different yardstick to look at 1,000 here or
the numbers that are divided into group oneand group two captains on Exhibit 30.
But how do you explain the fairness
of having these ratios of 1.52 and 1.64 to
one erode to 2.73 to one and 2.47 to one
after ten years?
If the panel determines that that's
a fair way to allocate the positions in the
top of the list, why would the panel want to
have that erode to the point where it changes
heavily in favor of the Delta pilots from a
ratio of 1.52 to 1 to 2.73 to 1 after ten
years?
CHAIRMAN BLOCH: I think we could
fairly assume that we really would not
like that sort of result. And it came
about because at the time I was
requesting the numbers, I had no idea
and no way of determining what would
happen in the out years, which is why I
requested that kind of a run in the
first place, to get an idea for our
discussion purposes of why that would
happen.
But if your point is that that
seems to be an imbalance, I agree with
that.

That was just a 10 year example. What do your ratios look like 15, 20 years out? Hint: It's a MUCH greater imbalance.....the kind that Bloch says they really would not like.

 

[PuffDriver]

Wanna bet. Never been a deciding factor in any airline arbitration. Do some homework.


I know, I know, those light twins y'all call widebodies.
.

math not your strongest suit?


Whats your seniority number, I check things out for you

Don't bother. Don't agree with me either. You have been running around these boards since the start with your head cut off. I have been sitting back and reading, and watching. It's all just a guess. Go try and make yourself feel better with somebody else. I'll stick with the reality of how things are.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nevermind ... it was funnier before it was typed out.

 

[General Lee]

8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.

We aren't equal sized carriers, and we don't have the same equipment, with the same aged pilots. It is tough to keep everything equal. As our side pointed out on the stand, your airline, as a stand alone, was going to furlough up to 300 pilots and scale back even more. (I can post it if you want to verify it) When we go into these negotiations, you go in with what you have, pay wise and job wise, not what you WILL have later. (I can post that too) In the meantime, your group is enjoying a much needed raise, and some of your rules have been improved. (manning for ultra long haul for example) There is nothing you can do (as Nu states) to take it all back etc. and keep what you had. The testimony is over, and now it is up to Bloch and the other 2 to decide.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Mein GOTT!

In 33 years it will be 100% Delta, OMG!

 

[General Lee]

I missed that part in the transcript....please provide a reference.

Do you mean like this math?:
That was just a 10 year example. What do your ratios look like 15, 20 years out? Hint: It's a MUCH greater imbalance.....the kind that Bloch says they really would not like.

So, how does it look when we lose over 500 pilots each year from our side for almost 5 straight years? Is it better than stapling the bottom 3000 pilots at Delta for your dynamic list? Hey, your guy said it would only be for 5 years........talk about ridiculous. I am glad that dynamic list idea was scoffed at. (I can post the Bloch remark too)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. .

I would dispute the fences and no bump/no flush protecting guys for a few years. That would only apply if no equipment gets moved.

But if they move 20 A319s from DTW to SLC, then guess what, 20 airplanes worth of NWA pilots are getting bumped, like it or not. Same if they move 20 MD88s from ATL to MSP.

Equipment is going to be moved. It is imperative that pilots be able to keep their bidding power from day one.

 

[DTW320]

You were wrong about the merger, you were wrong about the intent of LOA 19, and you will be wrong about this arbitration-- I would guess from reading the tea leaves. What ends up being a fair integration will look much like the Delta pilots envision more than what the NWA pilots envision. Disclaimer: I could be wrong.

I LOVE IT!

Arrogance and CYA all wrapped up in a cute little package.

 

[PuffDriver]

I LOVE IT!

Arrogance and CYA all wrapped up in a cute little package.

No, I love it. I have made no secret about the fact that it is just my reading of the tea leaves, and my logic behind it. Meanwhile you have nothing but pathetic attempts at jabs. Time will prove me wrong, if indeed I am.

I think that I've said my peace. You guys can have it all you wish now.

<insert pathetic Delta slam here>

 

[FBN0223]

nwaredtail
Thanks for taking the time to do a the random seniority analysis. It shows clearly that DALPA doesn't want to just win but they want to win by a landslide. Their huge victory would come at the expense of the NWA pilots to the extent where they would even place DL 2007 hires in front of NW 1999 hires. Talk about trying to hit one out of the park. Fortunately for all, reason, competence and fair arbitration will prevail. Please guys, no whining when this is all over.

 

[PuffDriver]

nwaredtail
Thanks for taking the time to do a the random seniority analysis. It shows clearly that DALPA doesn't want to just win but they want to win by a landslide. Their huge victory would come at the expense of the NWA pilots to the extent where they would even place DL 2007 hires in front of NW 1999 hires. Talk about trying to hit one out of the park. Fortunately for all, reason, competence and fair arbitration will prevail. Please guys, no whining when this is all over.

If I may, perhaps hire dates are just a perception of seniority. I agree that it is a hard pill to swallow, no doubt.

Besides, it isn't over yet, and I could cut and paste some very compelling evidence that NWA was indeed trying to do what you accuse the Delta pilots of doing, and at the same time cutting and pasting likewise compelling evidence that the "home run" you speak of isn't a home run at all, but really just where the list should work out if equality was indeed the goal. other perceptions of the exact same testimony "prove" differently.

But I promised that I wouldn't debate any more.

Figures lie and liars figure. Round and round we go. I do promise, however, no whining or gloating either way. How about we agree that either way is a fair list?

 

[clippyrip]

8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.

Your point is wasted on these Delta fools. They see NWA as a pinata and they are going for the big grab. They want a windfall and their feet are in the sand. Nothing we can do but wait till the 8th, the arbitrators know fair, clearly these fools do not.

 

[Full of LUV]

Wow, now that's the spirit.....

Your point is wasted on these Delta fools. They see NWA as a pinata and they are going for the big grab. They want a windfall and their feet are in the sand. Nothing we can do but wait till the 8th, the arbitrators know fair, clearly these fools do not.

The NWA analysis keeps using age 60 for their retirements but has DAL pilots working until 65. Of course they won't do as well if they punch out 60 early. You can't keep you pension, retire 5 years earlier than industry average and still plan to spend you last 5 years at the top of the list.

OBTW, Clippy, Nice attitude.....not!

 

[clippyrip]

Nice attitude.....not!

The 80's called, they would like their joke back.