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Fair and Equitable??????

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nwaredtail

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Posts
622
8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.
 
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Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point.
Unless you are a 757/767 pilot, a common category and the largest category in the Company.

.... and NWA's attorney tells the board that our Contract does not matter because what they award will supercede our working agreement. So, adios furlough and job protection provisions.
 
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8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.

My advice is that you read today's testimony, which goes a LONG way towards rebutting NWAs ideas IMO. LIke it or not, it DOES matter that you got instant pay raises which Delta didn't. That WILL and should be reflected in the award. Likewise, your guys do NOT all retire off of the top of the list. That matters. Likewise, when your guys move up the dynamic list, they move up in a COMBINED airplane system with access to more large aircraft than the NWA-only system. At the same time, Delta pilots are pushed down disproportionately due to the large system than they were in the smaller Delta-only system. Delta will resist long fences ala NWA proposal due to the synergies via the combined system with no restrictions.

In short, your teams numbers have been shot down with plain ole math instead of your fuzzy math. We can project lists out until everyone on the property today retires, but it has never been done that way. Your sides fault in logic, which it has had from the start is that they try and use the numbers from a combined list, when it is really about jobs brought to the merger. AKA fuzzy math. It wasn't unintentional, and indeed all along has been about NWA gaining at the detriment of the Delta pilots.

It ain't gonna happen, IMO. You were wrong about the merger, you were wrong about the intent of LOA 19, and you will be wrong about this arbitration-- I would guess from reading the tea leaves. What ends up being a fair integration will look much like the Delta pilots envision more than what the NWA pilots envision. Disclaimer: I could be wrong.
 
[. LIke it or not, it DOES matter that you got instant pay raises which Delta didn't.That WILL and should be reflected in the award.

Wanna bet. Never been a deciding factor in any airline arbitration. Do some homework.




Likewise, when your guys move up the dynamic list, they move up in a COMBINED airplane system with access to more large aircraft than the NWA-only system.

I know, I know, those light twins y'all call widebodies.



At the same time, Delta pilots are pushed down disproportionately due to the large system than they were in the smaller Delta-only system
.

math not your strongest suit?


Whats your seniority number, I check things out for you
 
Unless you are a 757/767 pilot, a common category and the largest category in the Company.

.... and NWA's attorney tells the board that our Contract does not matter because what they award will supercede our working agreement. So, adios furlough and job protection provisions.

Seniority number please, let me check your seniority progression for you.
 
LIke it or not, it DOES matter that you got instant pay raises which Delta didn't. That WILL and should be reflected in the award.
I missed that part in the transcript....please provide a reference.

In short, your teams numbers have been shot down with plain ole math instead of your fuzzy math
Do you mean like this math?:
BY MR. KATZ:
Q. These numbers are taken right off
of Exhibit 29. These numbers appear on the
right side of each one of these charts and
one of our merger representatives which has
written them down for the sake of comparison
on the left side is the dot charts we've been
looking at with 100 Northwest pilots pulled.
And you can compare on the top part of the
page at 1,000 what was originally a ratio of
1.52 to one, 603 Delta, 397 Northwest, has
become 2.73 to one after ten years, 732 Delta
and 268 Northwest. It's just a different marker, a
different yardstick to look at 1,000 here or
the numbers that are divided into group oneand group two captains on Exhibit 30.
But how do you explain the fairness
of having these ratios of 1.52 and 1.64 to
one erode to 2.73 to one and 2.47 to one
after ten years?
If the panel determines that that's
a fair way to allocate the positions in the
top of the list, why would the panel want to
have that erode to the point where it changes
heavily in favor of the Delta pilots from a
ratio of 1.52 to 1 to 2.73 to 1 after ten
years?
CHAIRMAN BLOCH: I think we could
fairly assume that we really would not
like that sort of result. And it came
about because at the time I was
requesting the numbers, I had no idea
and no way of determining what would
happen in the out years, which is why I
requested that kind of a run in the
first place, to get an idea for our
discussion purposes of why that would
happen.
But if your point is that that
seems to be an imbalance, I agree with
that.
That was just a 10 year example. What do your ratios look like 15, 20 years out? Hint: It's a MUCH greater imbalance.....the kind that Bloch says they really would not like.
 
Wanna bet. Never been a deciding factor in any airline arbitration. Do some homework.


I know, I know, those light twins y'all call widebodies.
.

math not your strongest suit?


Whats your seniority number, I check things out for you

Don't bother. Don't agree with me either. You have been running around these boards since the start with your head cut off. I have been sitting back and reading, and watching. It's all just a guess. Go try and make yourself feel better with somebody else. I'll stick with the reality of how things are.
 
Nevermind ... it was funnier before it was typed out.
 
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8 random pilots, 4 NWA & 4 DAL, 4 "groups " on the list. Remember, fences and "no bump/no flush" provisions will protect everyone for at least the first few years, so complaining where you will be on day one is a moot point. This NWA and DAL proposal numbers are retirement seniority.

737Capt - original seniority 23%, original retirement seniority =12%. New delta proposal = 10%, NWA propsal = 11%. Better either way.

A320Capt - original seniority 27%, original retirement = 22%, New DAL proposal = 25%, NWA proposal 22%
Same or worse

737Capt - original seniority - 49%, original retirement = 38%, new DAL Proposal = 28%, new NWA proposal = 32%. Once again better either way.


A320Capt - original seniority 58%, original retirement - 5%, New DAL proposal - 15%, New NWA proposal - 7%, loses either way. HMMMMMMMM?

767FO - original seniority 61%, original retirement - 21%, DAL proposal - 13%, NWA proposal 19%. Better either way

DC9Capt - original seniority 63%, original retirement - 1%, DAl proposal 13%, NWA proposal 2%. Loses either way

MD88FO -original seniority 78%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 20%, NWA proposal 26%. Better either way

A320FO -original Seniority 82%, original retirement 27%, DAL proposal 41%, NWA proposal 35%. Loses either way.

So basically, most DAL pilots make out better either way, it's just by how much, while under DAL's proposal all NWA get hosed. Just goes to prove which group is trying to make it work for everyone and which group is trying to gain at the other's expense.

Hey Fins, Puff, GL, etc. Give me your seniority number and I'll figure out how you all make out, then we will see if you have the right to complain. My guess, nope.

We aren't equal sized carriers, and we don't have the same equipment, with the same aged pilots. It is tough to keep everything equal. As our side pointed out on the stand, your airline, as a stand alone, was going to furlough up to 300 pilots and scale back even more. (I can post it if you want to verify it) When we go into these negotiations, you go in with what you have, pay wise and job wise, not what you WILL have later. (I can post that too) In the meantime, your group is enjoying a much needed raise, and some of your rules have been improved. (manning for ultra long haul for example) There is nothing you can do (as Nu states) to take it all back etc. and keep what you had. The testimony is over, and now it is up to Bloch and the other 2 to decide.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

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