FAA won't back training requirements

[NEDude]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

Actually there are very few airlines that put 250 hour guys in the right seat of a 747. The vast majority of the 250 hour guys in 747s are "Junior First Officers" or cruise pilots only. And they do that typically for 5+ years before they upgrade to regular FOs. Sort of like how it used to be in the USA when the junior pilot flew the panel for several years before upgrading to the right seat. Years of being in the flight deck, observing and learning from more senior pilots before actually getting to fly the airplane.

 

[G. Costanza]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

I had the pleasure of flying with 500 hour rookies in India on the 737NG. These kids were the best and smartest in the country and went though very tough testing programs.
What I saw was some of the best button pushers ever. They knew the FMS and autopilot better than myself.
What I learned was that the autopilot and FMS better always work for these kids because there was no way they could actually fly the airplane without it.
They did a great job until the airplane was about 200 feet from landing and the autopilot was turned off, then the wheels come off!
Rookie pilots have no business flying the paying public.

 

[Dornier 335]

Actually there are very few airlines that put 250 hour guys in the right seat of a 747. The vast majority of the 250 hour guys in 747s are "Junior First Officers" or cruise pilots only. And they do that typically for 5+ years before they upgrade to regular FOs. Sort of like how it used to be in the USA when the junior pilot flew the panel for several years before upgrading to the right seat. Years of being in the flight deck, observing and learning from more senior pilots before actually getting to fly the airplane.

Not quite. The LH F/O who tried to land the A320 in strong x-winds in HAM was very low time as well. There are lots of things with this incident that don't add up, like the F/O being suspended and the Training Captain back on line. But LH found the prefect excuse that has been widely accepted by the public: It was the aircraft's fault. It didn't know in what mode it was in.

Yeah right!

 

[Lear70]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training.

And their pilots still, routinely, scare the rat sh*t out of me 2 out of every 3 flights I have to take on Sleasy Jet or Ryan. Had one guy had to go around twice for winds that were gusting to barely 30 kts 60 degrees across the runway. I could hear the autothrottles and autopilot on the entire time up until the go-around decision. Total reliance on automation that's not up to the task and hand-flying is.

Are you freaking kidding me???!!! This was right after wunderchick and wundercaptain had that eye-watering near-accident in high winds dragging the wingtip down the runway, avoiding a crash by sheer pure dumb luck and the grace of God.

Low time has NO business being IN the business. I've been preaching the "ATP to be an Airline Pilot" idea for over a decade. Do a thread search... glad to see it coming (hopefully).

we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

Don't count on it. We get this passed, about 10 years from now we'll run out of pilots for the Regionals to hire in at $18k a year. They then will run screaming to congress for relief. It will be up to US to have a GAME PLAN to combat their MPL or Ab Initio ideas to keep the system running.

And Nu, I like ya buddy, but I gotta pick on ya a little...

Heyas,

Three words: NOT OUR PROBLEM

Could we, as pilots, self-policed this? How many times have we shouted at the rooftops about newbies wanting to jump into a jet with 400 ours, or NOT wanting to flight instruct, despite the fact that it re-inforces critical skills and decision making.

Yes, we could, we should, and we WILL get the chance again to do what we SHOULD have done to begin with: set airline PASSING standards just as high as the AMA or BAR Association does. Make it to where only the TRULY gifted, after THOUSANDS of hours, can pass the ATP. or pass the airline Initial Training.

THIS is what ALPA needs to focus on. Contractual requirements for ALPA approval for ALL company check airman. Make it to where WE control the pipeline. Make sure the supply to that airline is limited. Let the word pass down the line that you can invest hundreds of thousands of $$$ and might still not get online. Ever. And see how many pilots stop applying to flight schools.

Just like the ABA and the BAR Assoc. Control the supply, control the wages.

Now you're angry that Congress has to step in a force a correction?

Too bad. I just fired off another letter to my Congresscritters asking, no pleading with them NOT to back down on this.

Nope, I'm right there with ya. Just trying to prepare everyone for the work that BEGINS just AFTER this is voted in. We're not out of the woods yet, amigo!

 

[Fltlvls]

I had the pleasure of flying with 500 hour rookies in India on the 737NG. These kids were the best and smartest in the country and went though very tough testing programs.
What I saw was some of the best button pushers ever. They knew the FMS and autopilot better than myself.
What I learned was that the autopilot and FMS better always work for these kids because there was no way they could actually fly the airplane without it.
They did a great job until the airplane was about 200 feet from landing and the autopilot was turned off, then the wheels come off!
Rookie pilots have no business flying the paying public.

Did they also sound like a student pilot when talking on the radio?..That's always an embarassement when they are considered a "professional pilot".

Autopilot off..Airshow started!!

 

[G. Costanza]

Did they also sound like a student pilot when talking on the radio?..That's always an embarassement when they are considered a "professional pilot".

Autopilot off..Airshow started!!

Not too bad on the radio from what I remember. I had bigger concerns, like not crashing on the runway with 200+ people on board.
I cut my stress level by just providing the illusion that they were actually doing the landing

 

[Fly2AK]

I agree with everyones concerns about the ab init pilots. I have flown with several of these guys and they are great with the FMC but outside of that I have little faith in their actual abilities to pilot an aircraft. I have seen when the airplane is doing something they don't want, they immediately get into the box and their fingers start to work overtime. As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous" hmmm? Doesn't sound like the mentality I want flying my family around. I feel that most of these ab init guys really over complicate things, we manage our aircraft but first and foremost we are aviators, so lets aviat!! Click click, click click!

 

[G. Costanza]

I agree with everyones concerns about the ab init pilots. I have flown with several of these guys and they are great with the FMC but outside of that I have little faith in their actual abilities to pilot an aircraft. I have seen when the airplane is doing something they don't want, they immediately get into the box and their fingers start to work overtime. As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous" hmmm? Doesn't sound like the mentality I want flying my family around. I feel that most of these ab init guys really over complicate things, we manage our aircraft but first and foremost we are aviators, so lets aviat!! Click click, click click!

Totally agree, couldn't have said it better myself! Some of those European dudes are a piece of work. The new RJ generation aviators that basically learned to fly on automated glass cockpit aircraft are missing a critical part in being a aviator.
With all the reliance on high tech flight automation these guys don't realize their making themselves obsolete that much quicker.
Automation is great for safety but you better be ready to back it up with aviator skills when it all fails or I don't think you belong in the profession/trade.
I've seen guys on visual approaches that would type all the way into the ground into a big fireball if you let them. These goofballs don't know how to turn the autopilot/autothrottles off and look out the window and visually bring the airplane in for a landing, F$#'n amazing.

 

[Fltlvls]

Totally agree, couldn't have said it better myself! Some of those European dudes are a piece of work. The new RJ generation aviators that basically learned to fly on automated glass cockpit aircraft are missing a critical part in being a aviator.
With all the reliance on high tech flight automation these guys don't realize their making themselves obsolete that much quicker.
Automation is great for safety but you better be ready to back it up with aviator skills when it all fails or I don't think you belong in the profession/trade.
I've seen guys on visual approaches that would type all the way into the ground into a big fireball if you let them. These goofballs don't know how to turn the autopilot/autothrottles off and look out the window and visually bring the airplane in for a landing, F$#'n amazing.

You are spot on ..Some of the guys i flew with in the ERJ couldn't do a visual approach either, they always had to have the ILS tuned in to land the airplane..Geez!!! the runway is over there LAND ON IT !!..Some of the FOs could believe i would turn off the A/P and cancel my F/D and be able to land the airplane(visual conditions)..It's basic airmanship not rocket science.

 

[Dornier 335]

As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous"

When I flew contract in Europe that's the feedback I got. Every time I handflew the F/Os crapped their pants until I made them handfly. Unbelievably, they got the hang out of it, and looked forward to fly with one of us contractors. What was my answer to this non-sense statement above?

Are you afraid of your own airplane? If you can't control it you shouldn't be sitting up front.

That shut up even the biggest d!cks.

If you want perfect entertainment post a thread like this on pprune.