FAA won't back training requirements

[NEDude]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

Actually there are very few airlines that put 250 hour guys in the right seat of a 747. The vast majority of the 250 hour guys in 747s are "Junior First Officers" or cruise pilots only. And they do that typically for 5+ years before they upgrade to regular FOs. Sort of like how it used to be in the USA when the junior pilot flew the panel for several years before upgrading to the right seat. Years of being in the flight deck, observing and learning from more senior pilots before actually getting to fly the airplane.

 

[G. Costanza]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

I had the pleasure of flying with 500 hour rookies in India on the 737NG. These kids were the best and smartest in the country and went though very tough testing programs.
What I saw was some of the best button pushers ever. They knew the FMS and autopilot better than myself.
What I learned was that the autopilot and FMS better always work for these kids because there was no way they could actually fly the airplane without it.
They did a great job until the airplane was about 200 feet from landing and the autopilot was turned off, then the wheels come off!
Rookie pilots have no business flying the paying public.

 

[Dornier 335]

Actually there are very few airlines that put 250 hour guys in the right seat of a 747. The vast majority of the 250 hour guys in 747s are "Junior First Officers" or cruise pilots only. And they do that typically for 5+ years before they upgrade to regular FOs. Sort of like how it used to be in the USA when the junior pilot flew the panel for several years before upgrading to the right seat. Years of being in the flight deck, observing and learning from more senior pilots before actually getting to fly the airplane.

Not quite. The LH F/O who tried to land the A320 in strong x-winds in HAM was very low time as well. There are lots of things with this incident that don't add up, like the F/O being suspended and the Training Captain back on line. But LH found the prefect excuse that has been widely accepted by the public: It was the aircraft's fault. It didn't know in what mode it was in.

Yeah right!

 

[Lear70]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training.

And their pilots still, routinely, scare the rat sh*t out of me 2 out of every 3 flights I have to take on Sleasy Jet or Ryan. Had one guy had to go around twice for winds that were gusting to barely 30 kts 60 degrees across the runway. I could hear the autothrottles and autopilot on the entire time up until the go-around decision. Total reliance on automation that's not up to the task and hand-flying is.

Are you freaking kidding me???!!! This was right after wunderchick and wundercaptain had that eye-watering near-accident in high winds dragging the wingtip down the runway, avoiding a crash by sheer pure dumb luck and the grace of God.

Low time has NO business being IN the business. I've been preaching the "ATP to be an Airline Pilot" idea for over a decade. Do a thread search... glad to see it coming (hopefully).

we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

Don't count on it. We get this passed, about 10 years from now we'll run out of pilots for the Regionals to hire in at $18k a year. They then will run screaming to congress for relief. It will be up to US to have a GAME PLAN to combat their MPL or Ab Initio ideas to keep the system running.

And Nu, I like ya buddy, but I gotta pick on ya a little...

Heyas,

Three words: NOT OUR PROBLEM

Could we, as pilots, self-policed this? How many times have we shouted at the rooftops about newbies wanting to jump into a jet with 400 ours, or NOT wanting to flight instruct, despite the fact that it re-inforces critical skills and decision making.

Yes, we could, we should, and we WILL get the chance again to do what we SHOULD have done to begin with: set airline PASSING standards just as high as the AMA or BAR Association does. Make it to where only the TRULY gifted, after THOUSANDS of hours, can pass the ATP. or pass the airline Initial Training.

THIS is what ALPA needs to focus on. Contractual requirements for ALPA approval for ALL company check airman. Make it to where WE control the pipeline. Make sure the supply to that airline is limited. Let the word pass down the line that you can invest hundreds of thousands of $$$ and might still not get online. Ever. And see how many pilots stop applying to flight schools.

Just like the ABA and the BAR Assoc. Control the supply, control the wages.

Now you're angry that Congress has to step in a force a correction?

Too bad. I just fired off another letter to my Congresscritters asking, no pleading with them NOT to back down on this.

Nope, I'm right there with ya. Just trying to prepare everyone for the work that BEGINS just AFTER this is voted in. We're not out of the woods yet, amigo!

 

[Fltlvls]

I had the pleasure of flying with 500 hour rookies in India on the 737NG. These kids were the best and smartest in the country and went though very tough testing programs.
What I saw was some of the best button pushers ever. They knew the FMS and autopilot better than myself.
What I learned was that the autopilot and FMS better always work for these kids because there was no way they could actually fly the airplane without it.
They did a great job until the airplane was about 200 feet from landing and the autopilot was turned off, then the wheels come off!
Rookie pilots have no business flying the paying public.

Did they also sound like a student pilot when talking on the radio?..That's always an embarassement when they are considered a "professional pilot".

Autopilot off..Airshow started!!

 

[G. Costanza]

Did they also sound like a student pilot when talking on the radio?..That's always an embarassement when they are considered a "professional pilot".

Autopilot off..Airshow started!!

Not too bad on the radio from what I remember. I had bigger concerns, like not crashing on the runway with 200+ people on board.
I cut my stress level by just providing the illusion that they were actually doing the landing

 

[Fly2AK]

I agree with everyones concerns about the ab init pilots. I have flown with several of these guys and they are great with the FMC but outside of that I have little faith in their actual abilities to pilot an aircraft. I have seen when the airplane is doing something they don't want, they immediately get into the box and their fingers start to work overtime. As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous" hmmm? Doesn't sound like the mentality I want flying my family around. I feel that most of these ab init guys really over complicate things, we manage our aircraft but first and foremost we are aviators, so lets aviat!! Click click, click click!

 

[G. Costanza]

I agree with everyones concerns about the ab init pilots. I have flown with several of these guys and they are great with the FMC but outside of that I have little faith in their actual abilities to pilot an aircraft. I have seen when the airplane is doing something they don't want, they immediately get into the box and their fingers start to work overtime. As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous" hmmm? Doesn't sound like the mentality I want flying my family around. I feel that most of these ab init guys really over complicate things, we manage our aircraft but first and foremost we are aviators, so lets aviat!! Click click, click click!

Totally agree, couldn't have said it better myself! Some of those European dudes are a piece of work. The new RJ generation aviators that basically learned to fly on automated glass cockpit aircraft are missing a critical part in being a aviator.
With all the reliance on high tech flight automation these guys don't realize their making themselves obsolete that much quicker.
Automation is great for safety but you better be ready to back it up with aviator skills when it all fails or I don't think you belong in the profession/trade.
I've seen guys on visual approaches that would type all the way into the ground into a big fireball if you let them. These goofballs don't know how to turn the autopilot/autothrottles off and look out the window and visually bring the airplane in for a landing, F$#'n amazing.

 

[Fltlvls]

Totally agree, couldn't have said it better myself! Some of those European dudes are a piece of work. The new RJ generation aviators that basically learned to fly on automated glass cockpit aircraft are missing a critical part in being a aviator.
With all the reliance on high tech flight automation these guys don't realize their making themselves obsolete that much quicker.
Automation is great for safety but you better be ready to back it up with aviator skills when it all fails or I don't think you belong in the profession/trade.
I've seen guys on visual approaches that would type all the way into the ground into a big fireball if you let them. These goofballs don't know how to turn the autopilot/autothrottles off and look out the window and visually bring the airplane in for a landing, F$#'n amazing.

You are spot on ..Some of the guys i flew with in the ERJ couldn't do a visual approach either, they always had to have the ILS tuned in to land the airplane..Geez!!! the runway is over there LAND ON IT !!..Some of the FOs could believe i would turn off the A/P and cancel my F/D and be able to land the airplane(visual conditions)..It's basic airmanship not rocket science.

 

[Dornier 335]

As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous"

When I flew contract in Europe that's the feedback I got. Every time I handflew the F/Os crapped their pants until I made them handfly. Unbelievably, they got the hang out of it, and looked forward to fly with one of us contractors. What was my answer to this non-sense statement above?

Are you afraid of your own airplane? If you can't control it you shouldn't be sitting up front.

That shut up even the biggest d!cks.

If you want perfect entertainment post a thread like this on pprune.

 

[G. Costanza]

Quote:
As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous"
"If you want perfect entertainment post a thread like this on pprune. "

Hey that sounds fun I need some free entertainment! Just like what Kevin Kline said in Fish Called Wanda, " you British think your so superior". It would be fun to mess with them.

 

[Dornier 335]

Be prepared for a long battle. There's quite a bit of animosity towards "the yanks that don't know how to fly, lack knowledge, education etc."

Although I don't support the (total) reliance on automation, most EU operators have been quite lucky with regards to (no pilot-error) accidents. It might just be a statistical fact, since there are more flights in the US. Just my $.02.

Good luck!

 

[Lear70]

Be prepared for a long battle. There's quite a bit of animosity towards "the yanks that don't know how to fly, lack knowledge, education etc."

I got a bit of that towards the end of a contract I flew over in Italy. I couldn't quote the book formulas but I nailed every single arc transition, waypoint transition onto the ILS, etc, and greased every landing, including the gusting to 40 kt winds they wanted to divert for (it was only 15 degrees across the runway for crying out loud).

Yes, you need book knowledge as well, but I agree that most pilots outside the U.S. are SOOO focused on the books and avionics that they forget what it means to just fly the airplane.

I suggested to the Ryan Air crew that scared me so badly on the crosswind approach in Rome that they should hand-fly the airplane down the approach (it was VMC) to get a feel for what the wind was doing, rather than waiting until 100 feet to disconnect the autopilot and suddenly have to start fighting for it just prior to the flare (I was in the 2nd row and could hear the cavalry charge disconnect tone on each approach). They looked at me like I had lost my mind and said "That's not our procedure." I answered "Well, what do I know, I've only been doing this for 20 years with almost 10,000 hours..." I'd call them idiots but I just don't think they know any better.

Although I don't support the (total) reliance on automation, most EU operators have been quite lucky with regards to (no pilot-error) accidents. It might just be a statistical fact, since there are more flights in the US. Just my $.02.

My money is simply that the system is SO structured and the Airbus and advanced Boeings have SUCH a low failure rate of the avionics suite that the automation takes the brunt of the problem when they DO have an abnormal or an emergency.

Honestly, after flying at Pinnacle for 5 years, I can absolutely tell you that the only thing that's kept MORE accidents from happening is the reliance on the automation, dedication to procedures, and sheer, dumb luck. You'll notice that most of the accidents have happened when either the automation was disconnected, overridden, or there wasn't a high enough level of automation (autothrottles) to keep the airplane flying when the flight crew did something stupid. In Europe, they've made things SO automated and are SUCH sticklers for procedure (autopilot on at 600 feet after takeoff, off 100 feet before landing, auto lands as often as possible in IMC) that it would likely take a catastrophic avionics failure with crappy weather to start having problems.

Stick skills are almost completely gone, and I also blame it on the Children of the Magenta training methodology. We're the old men, my friend. After our generation is gone, with the exception of military pilots, I don't think there'll be 1 pilot left in 50 who could fly a 20-series Lear or a 727 or even a Pitts if you threw them in one.

 

[NuGuy]

Quote:
As one European captain told me "hand flying is dangerous"
"If you want perfect entertainment post a thread like this on pprune. "

PPRune is funny, they seem to be speaking (writing, typing, whatever) English, but I don't understand a single thing they say.

They have some very peculiar ideas, BUT, I notice they hate the low-balling just as much as we do. Of course, they have no shortage of bright eyed wannabees, either...the only difference is they get their money from "mum" instead of "mom".

Nu

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I've been in training outside of the States for a little over a month now, and I noticed something funny in the training center:

On the paper tigers, some of buttons and switches are pretty worn from use. The most worn area - the FMC Line Select Keys. The students over here must be memorizing things like PERF INIT - 6R - 6R - CI 30, etc. The screens don't work, but they're in there punching away. . .

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Another chance missed

Yet another mark missed by one of our gov't. agencies. No, this is not a slam on the current White House residents, but a slam on the blinder wearing Feds, period!!

This was a window to correct a few short-comings and they (the FAA and Congress) failed to make a difference.

Not sure how many more people must be killed while traveling our nation's airways.

 

[G. Costanza]

I got a bit of that towards the end of a contract I flew over in Italy. I couldn't quote the book formulas but I nailed every single arc transition, waypoint transition onto the ILS, etc, and greased every landing, including the gusting to 40 kt winds they wanted to divert for (it was only 15 degrees across the runway for crying out loud).

Yes, you need book knowledge as well, but I agree that most pilots outside the U.S. are SOOO focused on the books and avionics that they forget what it means to just fly the airplane.

I suggested to the Ryan Air crew that scared me so badly on the crosswind approach in Rome that they should hand-fly the airplane down the approach (it was VMC) to get a feel for what the wind was doing, rather than waiting until 100 feet to disconnect the autopilot and suddenly have to start fighting for it just prior to the flare (I was in the 2nd row and could hear the cavalry charge disconnect tone on each approach). They looked at me like I had lost my mind and said "That's not our procedure." I answered "Well, what do I know, I've only been doing this for 20 years with almost 10,000 hours..." I'd call them idiots but I just don't think they know any better.


My money is simply that the system is SO structured and the Airbus and advanced Boeings have SUCH a low failure rate of the avionics suite that the automation takes the brunt of the problem when they DO have an abnormal or an emergency.

Honestly, after flying at Pinnacle for 5 years, I can absolutely tell you that the only thing that's kept MORE accidents from happening is the reliance on the automation, dedication to procedures, and sheer, dumb luck. You'll notice that most of the accidents have happened when either the automation was disconnected, overridden, or there wasn't a high enough level of automation (autothrottles) to keep the airplane flying when the flight crew did something stupid. In Europe, they've made things SO automated and are SUCH sticklers for procedure (autopilot on at 600 feet after takeoff, off 100 feet before landing, auto lands as often as possible in IMC) that it would likely take a catastrophic avionics failure with crappy weather to start having problems.

Stick skills are almost completely gone, and I also blame it on the Children of the Magenta training methodology. We're the old men, my friend. After our generation is gone, with the exception of military pilots, I don't think there'll be 1 pilot left in 50 who could fly a 20-series Lear or a 727 or even a Pitts if you threw them in one.

You speak the truth brother. Different set of circumstances but this is "no country for old men."

 

[igneousy2]

"We view this option as being more targeted than merely increasing the number of total flight hours required, because it will be obvious to the carrier what skills an individual pilot has rather than relying on an assumption that a certain number of hours has resulted in a comprehensive set of skills,"

This is a "false-choice" argument. The argument implies that we must EITHER have improved checking or assume a certain number of hours is good. We CAN and SHOULD have both...then we don't have to assume anything about the skills.

I think those of you against the increased hours are wrong in how you are thinking about what the 1500 hours mean. Nobody is saying that a 1500 hour pilot means you are suddenly and automatically a competent pilot.

The 1500 hours, and the other requirements of the ATP, are a vetting process. If you get through 1500 hours without a violation, accident, incident, or busted checkride, then you have either a. exceptional judgment, b. exceptional pilot skills, c. are damn lucky, or d. have sufficient quantaties of a, b, & c in combination to have survived your first 1500 hours. This is a lot more information than an employer would have about a 250 hour pilot. This is the reason the hour requirements are there to begin with.

When/if you were instructing a pre-solo student and up until now a student was unable to perform a landing without intervention on the controls on your part. Now you turn final...you flare...the student greases it on! Do you right then and there jump out of the airplane and send your student back into the pattern on their first solo? Maybe some of you would but I wouldn't! Wouldn't you want to see the student do that at least two, three or probably ten more times?

The 1500 hour requirement of an ATP insures that the airlines are looking at enough of the history of an applicant. A 300 hour pilot really has very little history to review.

And besides...some of you are acting as if they are proposing a 10,000 hour requirement. This is an extra 1-2 years of flying beyond a basic commercial rating. Give me a break.

As for Babbitt...

I'm off the fence...up until now I have been trying to give Babbitt the benefit of the doubt on some other issues...but this is it. He is definetly in the pocket of the ATA. He should no longer be trusted.

 

[CessnaFan]

My belief is to forget about hours and just require an ATP for both seats.

Sorry, but anybody who is into flying must know what a stick shaker is. I don't care what type of training you have received, the stick shaker is one of the most alarming things that can happen inside the cabin in a mechanically trouble free flight. It basically says that you are seconds from the point of no return of dying a horrible death.

I seem to remember that both crew members of the Buffalo crash had more than 1500 hours. Tell me how this change in rules would have saved any lives on that flight. The problem seems more related to the fact that Colgon's training was (is?) CRAP. I seem to recall the among other things, the Captain had never been trained on what the stick shaker felt like. WTF?

 

[Lear70]

My belief is to forget about hours and just require an ATP for both seats.

Well, since an ATP is already REQUIRED for the left seat, and since the ATP requires a minimum number of flight hours, I don't really understand what you're getting at here.

Sorry, but anybody who is into flying must know what a stick shaker is. I don't care what type of training you have received, the stick shaker is one of the most alarming things that can happen inside the cabin in a mechanically trouble free flight. It basically says that you are seconds from the point of no return of dying a horrible death.

Unless your profile information is incorrect, you haven't flown an aircraft with a stick shaker.

Do you know what the stick shaker is telling you, from a TECHNICAL standpoint and how it relates to VsO? Do you understand the difference between tailplane icing recovery and wing icing recovery techniques?

If you read the thread, and the BUF accident report, you'll see the crew was concerned with icing, and tailplane icing requires a completely different response. Not to defend the CA, who was PF, but he had less than a second to react to what he thought was going on... and he chose poorly, but that's NOT the primary cause of the accident.

The primary cause of the accident was the CA not paying attention (due possibly to fatigue, or possibly to him not having the skillset to be in that seat in the first place as evidenced by multiple checkride failures), not increasing power after putting the condition levers forward on the props and adding more flaps (thus adding more drag), and the F/O's chatterbox talking and not paying attention, all of which allowed the aircraft to slow to stall speed and neither of them catching the mistake because they weren't paying the fu*k attention to what they were doing.

They paid for their mistakes with their lives.

There's a lot of secondary lessons to be learned from this accident, for certain, and I've been an advocate of an ATP to be an airline pilot for almost a decade now having been made to suffer through enough 300 hour wunderkid children of the magenta to realize just how useless they are (single pilot would be better much of the time, I don't have to watch what the hell you're doing over there as well as flying - I'm not a babysitter), as well as question what someone with 3, 4, or even 5 checkride failures inside 10 years of a career is even DOING in the left seat, but the primary lesson learned is not to get distracted and if you're fatigued, don't come to work.

The push for an ATP is just an additional help to our profession from what was a horrible tragedy.