FAA won't back training requirements

[Fltlvls]

I remember toward the end of my tenture at Colgan having a conversation with a training captain about the inability of the 300 hour wonder boys to perform simple operations in the airplane. His response was that their objective was to just get the kid to pass the checkride and get them out on the line where we (the captains) were supposed to teach them the rest. I took a new job soon after.

Sounds familiar.Some of those I flew with had 80+ hrs of IOE,instead of washing them out. As you said, us line captains had to teach them the rest.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Hooray! I've been waiting for the semi-annual arguments in this thread:

You must have at least as much experience as I did to be in an airline.

I know a Captain with X hours who sucks.

I know an FO with X hours who rocks.

You must have experienced (engine failure, severe icing, hail, etc) X times before you can fly in an airline.

In order to want to work at an airline, the pay must be X before you accept.

You must fly a turboprop X hours at your airline before you move on to jets, even if your airline doesn't operate turboprops.

etc.

 

[Draginass]

Babbitt is an industry tool. 1500 hours as an entry level into Part 121 flying should be the minimum. It WILL make things safer. The problem is that the industry would rather keep costs down by hiring wet rookies than hiring experienced pilots, and the industry owns the FAA. Yes, it's really that simple.

 

[152SIC]

Someone gets it. Best summary I have read.

Babbitt is an industry tool. 1500 hours as an entry level into Part 121 flying should be the minimum. It WILL make things safer. The problem is that the industry would rather keep costs down by hiring wet rookies than hiring experienced pilots, and the industry owns the FAA. Yes, it's really that simple.

 

[Formula 1]

I support the 1500 hour minimum ATP requirement for regional airline pilots. If anything it would delay low time pilots by several years till they reach the cockpit of a RJ. This would instill a since of I earned it and not that I deserved it because I paid for my job. We would see new hire pay increase to an acceptable level to attract higher timed pilots. Who do you want in the cockpit? Pilot A with an ATP new-hire who won't accept anything less than $35hr or Pilot B with 400 hours who is willing to work for $23 hour. This law would ultimately increase everyone's QOL and pride for our profession.

 

[MCDU]

1500hrs would also delay people hired with 600 hrs. to upgrade with 2000 hours. That is the big problem with low time new hires. Low time pilots hired and then they upgrade with very low experience and then fly with 400 hr pilots is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the GIA graduate did with the Colgan Dach 8. That captain should never have been hired with so low time and then upgrade so fast. Especially with this guys track record. He should have found another profession. But they just pushed them through the low cost system. An absolut disgrace. I hope the families get tons of money out of this. Low time is not good. Especially if the Capt. is low time. and a failure.

M

 

[onionluvr]

.....or credit toward the ATP requirements with specific academic courses.

And that right there is the loophole. Guess who will get to determine what credits toward the requirements............ "The Administrator"

 

[dispatchguy]

WTF is wrong with someone wanting to fly AIRLINE passengers as a pilot to hold an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT certificate??

I totally support the requirement to have at least an ATP to start in any airline ground school.

 

[get2flyin]

1500hrs would also delay people hired with 600 hrs. to upgrade with 2000 hours. That is the big problem with low time new hires. Low time pilots hired and then they upgrade with very low experience and then fly with 400 hr pilots is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the GIA graduate did with the Colgan Dach 8. That captain should never have been hired with so low time and then upgrade so fast. Especially with this guys track record. He should have found another profession. But they just pushed them through the low cost system. An absolut disgrace. I hope the families get tons of money out of this. Low time is not good. Especially if the Capt. is low time. and a failure.

M

I'm.....I'm....I'm....speechless. MCDU, for the first time I can remember I unequivocally agree with you.

 

[batsky2000]

I will not purchase transportation on any of these airlines for myself or family. Not safe.

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

 

[NEDude]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

Actually there are very few airlines that put 250 hour guys in the right seat of a 747. The vast majority of the 250 hour guys in 747s are "Junior First Officers" or cruise pilots only. And they do that typically for 5+ years before they upgrade to regular FOs. Sort of like how it used to be in the USA when the junior pilot flew the panel for several years before upgrading to the right seat. Years of being in the flight deck, observing and learning from more senior pilots before actually getting to fly the airplane.

 

[G. Costanza]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

I had the pleasure of flying with 500 hour rookies in India on the 737NG. These kids were the best and smartest in the country and went though very tough testing programs.
What I saw was some of the best button pushers ever. They knew the FMS and autopilot better than myself.
What I learned was that the autopilot and FMS better always work for these kids because there was no way they could actually fly the airplane without it.
They did a great job until the airplane was about 200 feet from landing and the autopilot was turned off, then the wheels come off!
Rookie pilots have no business flying the paying public.

 

[Dornier 335]

Actually there are very few airlines that put 250 hour guys in the right seat of a 747. The vast majority of the 250 hour guys in 747s are "Junior First Officers" or cruise pilots only. And they do that typically for 5+ years before they upgrade to regular FOs. Sort of like how it used to be in the USA when the junior pilot flew the panel for several years before upgrading to the right seat. Years of being in the flight deck, observing and learning from more senior pilots before actually getting to fly the airplane.

Not quite. The LH F/O who tried to land the A320 in strong x-winds in HAM was very low time as well. There are lots of things with this incident that don't add up, like the F/O being suspended and the Training Captain back on line. But LH found the prefect excuse that has been widely accepted by the public: It was the aircraft's fault. It didn't know in what mode it was in.

Yeah right!

 

[Lear70]

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training.

And their pilots still, routinely, scare the rat sh*t out of me 2 out of every 3 flights I have to take on Sleasy Jet or Ryan. Had one guy had to go around twice for winds that were gusting to barely 30 kts 60 degrees across the runway. I could hear the autothrottles and autopilot on the entire time up until the go-around decision. Total reliance on automation that's not up to the task and hand-flying is.

Are you freaking kidding me???!!! This was right after wunderchick and wundercaptain had that eye-watering near-accident in high winds dragging the wingtip down the runway, avoiding a crash by sheer pure dumb luck and the grace of God.

Low time has NO business being IN the business. I've been preaching the "ATP to be an Airline Pilot" idea for over a decade. Do a thread search... glad to see it coming (hopefully).

we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.

Don't count on it. We get this passed, about 10 years from now we'll run out of pilots for the Regionals to hire in at $18k a year. They then will run screaming to congress for relief. It will be up to US to have a GAME PLAN to combat their MPL or Ab Initio ideas to keep the system running.

And Nu, I like ya buddy, but I gotta pick on ya a little...

Heyas,

Three words: NOT OUR PROBLEM

Could we, as pilots, self-policed this? How many times have we shouted at the rooftops about newbies wanting to jump into a jet with 400 ours, or NOT wanting to flight instruct, despite the fact that it re-inforces critical skills and decision making.

Yes, we could, we should, and we WILL get the chance again to do what we SHOULD have done to begin with: set airline PASSING standards just as high as the AMA or BAR Association does. Make it to where only the TRULY gifted, after THOUSANDS of hours, can pass the ATP. or pass the airline Initial Training.

THIS is what ALPA needs to focus on. Contractual requirements for ALPA approval for ALL company check airman. Make it to where WE control the pipeline. Make sure the supply to that airline is limited. Let the word pass down the line that you can invest hundreds of thousands of $$$ and might still not get online. Ever. And see how many pilots stop applying to flight schools.

Just like the ABA and the BAR Assoc. Control the supply, control the wages.

Now you're angry that Congress has to step in a force a correction?

Too bad. I just fired off another letter to my Congresscritters asking, no pleading with them NOT to back down on this.

Nope, I'm right there with ya. Just trying to prepare everyone for the work that BEGINS just AFTER this is voted in. We're not out of the woods yet, amigo!

 

[Fltlvls]

I had the pleasure of flying with 500 hour rookies in India on the 737NG. These kids were the best and smartest in the country and went though very tough testing programs.
What I saw was some of the best button pushers ever. They knew the FMS and autopilot better than myself.
What I learned was that the autopilot and FMS better always work for these kids because there was no way they could actually fly the airplane without it.
They did a great job until the airplane was about 200 feet from landing and the autopilot was turned off, then the wheels come off!
Rookie pilots have no business flying the paying public.

Did they also sound like a student pilot when talking on the radio?..That's always an embarassement when they are considered a "professional pilot".

Autopilot off..Airshow started!!