FAA won't back training requirements

[N813CA]

I kind of agree. I have seen 500 hour pilot kick butt and 2,000 hour pilots do bad in training. And I have seen 500 hour pilots do bad as well as 2,000 hour pilots do good. Hours doesn't make a difference. Some people just should be pilots.... I just flew with a captain after 23 years and he was not safe at all. What about him?

 

[Jabwmu]

When i flew with these 300 hr wonder kids, they didn't know they were getting themselves in trouble. Now that was scary.I can't count how many times i said "I have the controls".

That's sad you don't trust or have faith in other pilots just starting out. I'm sure these same wonder kids really enjoyed your company.

 

[Fltlvls]

That's sad you don't trust or have faith in other pilots just starting out. I'm sure these same wonder kids really enjoyed your company.

I let them take it to the point where i felt it was getting unsafe.What would you do?..Let them crash it in the ground or run off the runway or do several go arounds because they can't get the airplane stabilized.And i am talking about these things happened after they were signed off from IOE.Need i make a longer list of other things.Alot of it was basic airmanship and not so much learning the airplane.Don't slam me for my decision as a PIC when it's my signature and ticket on the line.

 

[waka]

I agree.
It is pretty sad when the race to the bottom has to be stopped by blood of innocent passengers.

Apparently, the blood of pax isn't stopping this race either.

 

[timmay]

And you're not going to get that at college and you're not going to get that flight instructing.

That leaves us with military, Part 135, and corporate. But are there enough of these jobs to create enough of your "experienced" pilots for the airlines?

You are also assuming corporate pilots want to go to the airlines. Been there, done that and have no plans of returning.

 

[Fly2AK]

I for one don't believe in the kid living in mom and dads basement working for food stamps should be sitting in the right seat of a jet or paying for training in a jet at some scum bag fee for departure airline should be exceptable. Do your time fly somewhere and gain some real experience. It would be one thing if there was a sense of respect for a captains experience, but most new low time pilots feel they are there to keep an eye on the captain. They believe crm is to argue with the captain, because the FO is the checks and balances of the flight. Don't get me wrong, there are some awesome FO's out there with less than 2000 hrs, but there are a ton of FO's that feel they should be captain in a year. The generation of pilots coming up through the ranks in my opinion feel like they are owed that jet captain's seat they don't need to earn it. I hear all the time not to blame the pilots it's management, yet pilots know what the mesa's and republics of the world are doing to this industry and our careers yet they still decide to go there and help support it. They work under crap wages and work rules all because they are flying a nice shinny barbie jet and feel they will build time there rather than paying their dues flying part 135 night cargo, alaska bush flying or what ever all because they hope to get the time to fly a Boeing or Airbus for a major. So for that 300 hour pilot that feels "who cares what I make, look what I get to fly" you are a big part of the problem in this industry. For the record, I refused to work for any pay for training airline, I paid my dues flying military and part 135, my first 121 gig was on a turbo prop when I had 3300 hours. I think the best thing for our careers and for the safety of the flying public would be for higher standards for pilots to fly 121. Just my 2 cents, I don't expect you to agree with it but the low time pilots need to grow up and move out of mommy's basement and think of their future.

 

[veneratio]

It does not matter what the FAA says, HR 3371 already passed in the house and is now in the senate. Under section 10 of HR 3371, all FAR 121 pilots must have an ATP certificate within 3 years of the enactment of the act. If it becomes public law, and it will, than all pilots must have an ATP and at the minimum 1500 flight hours or credit toward the ATP requirements with specific academic courses.

 

[NuGuy]

And you're not going to get that at college and you're not going to get that flight instructing.

That leaves us with military, Part 135, and corporate. But are there enough of these jobs to create enough of your "experienced" pilots for the airlines?

Heyas,

Three words: NOT OUR PROBLEM

The management/ownership of avaition interests, the FAA, Congress and to some extent, the flying public are wholly responsible for the mess the industry is in right now.

Management was only too happy to use the "perfect storm" of economy, war, terrorism, bankruptcy law and natural disaster to pummel pilots into a HUGE loss of wages, benefits an quality of life, including benefits already accrued.

The net result of this mis-management is that the supply of qualified and experienced pilots who are willing to work for crap wages dwindled to nothing. Now they got what they wanted and have to live with the results of their actions.

Could we, as pilots, self-policed this? How many times have we shouted at the rooftops about newbies wanting to jump into a jet with 400 ours, or NOT wanting to flight instruct, despite the fact that it re-inforces critical skills and decision making.

Now you're angry that Congress has to step in a force a correction?

Too bad. I just fired off another letter to my Congresscritters asking, no pleading with them NOT to back down on this.

Nu

 

[WMUSIGPI]

And you're not going to get that at college and you're not going to get that flight instructing.

That leaves us with military, Part 135, and corporate. But are there enough of these jobs to create enough of your "experienced" pilots for the airlines?

No because most of those jobs pay much better than starting out at a 121. Most of those pilots will not make the jump because of the big pay cut.

 

[smartelephant]

I remember toward the end of my tenture at Colgan having a conversation with a training captain about the inability of the 300 hour wonder boys to perform simple operations in the airplane. His response was that their objective was to just get the kid to pass the checkride and get them out on the line where we (the captains) were supposed to teach them the rest. I took a new job soon after.

 

[Fltlvls]

I remember toward the end of my tenture at Colgan having a conversation with a training captain about the inability of the 300 hour wonder boys to perform simple operations in the airplane. His response was that their objective was to just get the kid to pass the checkride and get them out on the line where we (the captains) were supposed to teach them the rest. I took a new job soon after.

Sounds familiar.Some of those I flew with had 80+ hrs of IOE,instead of washing them out. As you said, us line captains had to teach them the rest.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Hooray! I've been waiting for the semi-annual arguments in this thread:

You must have at least as much experience as I did to be in an airline.

I know a Captain with X hours who sucks.

I know an FO with X hours who rocks.

You must have experienced (engine failure, severe icing, hail, etc) X times before you can fly in an airline.

In order to want to work at an airline, the pay must be X before you accept.

You must fly a turboprop X hours at your airline before you move on to jets, even if your airline doesn't operate turboprops.

etc.

 

[Draginass]

Babbitt is an industry tool. 1500 hours as an entry level into Part 121 flying should be the minimum. It WILL make things safer. The problem is that the industry would rather keep costs down by hiring wet rookies than hiring experienced pilots, and the industry owns the FAA. Yes, it's really that simple.

 

[152SIC]

Someone gets it. Best summary I have read.

Babbitt is an industry tool. 1500 hours as an entry level into Part 121 flying should be the minimum. It WILL make things safer. The problem is that the industry would rather keep costs down by hiring wet rookies than hiring experienced pilots, and the industry owns the FAA. Yes, it's really that simple.

 

[Formula 1]

I support the 1500 hour minimum ATP requirement for regional airline pilots. If anything it would delay low time pilots by several years till they reach the cockpit of a RJ. This would instill a since of I earned it and not that I deserved it because I paid for my job. We would see new hire pay increase to an acceptable level to attract higher timed pilots. Who do you want in the cockpit? Pilot A with an ATP new-hire who won't accept anything less than $35hr or Pilot B with 400 hours who is willing to work for $23 hour. This law would ultimately increase everyone's QOL and pride for our profession.

 

[MCDU]

1500hrs would also delay people hired with 600 hrs. to upgrade with 2000 hours. That is the big problem with low time new hires. Low time pilots hired and then they upgrade with very low experience and then fly with 400 hr pilots is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the GIA graduate did with the Colgan Dach 8. That captain should never have been hired with so low time and then upgrade so fast. Especially with this guys track record. He should have found another profession. But they just pushed them through the low cost system. An absolut disgrace. I hope the families get tons of money out of this. Low time is not good. Especially if the Capt. is low time. and a failure.

M

 

[onionluvr]

.....or credit toward the ATP requirements with specific academic courses.

And that right there is the loophole. Guess who will get to determine what credits toward the requirements............ "The Administrator"

 

[dispatchguy]

WTF is wrong with someone wanting to fly AIRLINE passengers as a pilot to hold an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT certificate??

I totally support the requirement to have at least an ATP to start in any airline ground school.

 

[get2flyin]

1500hrs would also delay people hired with 600 hrs. to upgrade with 2000 hours. That is the big problem with low time new hires. Low time pilots hired and then they upgrade with very low experience and then fly with 400 hr pilots is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the GIA graduate did with the Colgan Dach 8. That captain should never have been hired with so low time and then upgrade so fast. Especially with this guys track record. He should have found another profession. But they just pushed them through the low cost system. An absolut disgrace. I hope the families get tons of money out of this. Low time is not good. Especially if the Capt. is low time. and a failure.

M

I'm.....I'm....I'm....speechless. MCDU, for the first time I can remember I unequivocally agree with you.

 

[batsky2000]

I will not purchase transportation on any of these airlines for myself or family. Not safe.

I guess you never have flown on any foreign airline? Most foreign airlines have Ab Initio programs where they have guys that start out with 0 hours and by 250 hours are flying right seat in a B747 or similar size aircraft. The difference with them over US airlines and training, is that they go through a very stringent and tough testing program, you know early on if you are cutout to be a professional pilot. Maybe we should adapt a similar program in terms of training. we will never see an Ab Initio program in the US due to a vast resource of pilots from various sources.