FAA settles on CO Denver crash victims

[dz505]

From power up on take-off until cleaned up and flying and from minimums on approach until stopped at the gate are 100 percent pilot/captain responsibility. It can not be any other way.

Spot on

 

[airplane wizard]

I always chuckle at the ones when he releases brakes and push the power up in a crosswind takeoff, he then mashes the yolk full forward and turns the wheel over 45 degree's. Like thats going to help at 5 knots ground speed... It's usually the same ones who cant flair without pumping the column at about 6 cycles per second.

Why would anyone mimic the stick shaker??

 

[waveflyer]

I always chuckle at the ones when he releases brakes and push the power up in a crosswind takeoff, he then mashes the yolk full forward and turns the wheel over 45 degree's. Like thats going to help at 5 knots ground speed... It's usually the same ones who cant flair without pumping the column at about 6 cycles per second.

I don't pump any columns, but I will put in a crosswind correction at 40-50 kts when needed and roll it out as the controls get more effective-
It's still an airplane and it'll fly better straight down the runway with a little spoiler out than it will in a ditch-

Again- not hanging the pilot for that bc I agree with the NTSB training barely touches on transport category aerodynamics if at all and we've all seen enough that ideas on the subject are varied at best-

I'm just saying 100% you don't get a payout from the FAA and it's still our responsibility no matter what ATC tells you.


"Probable Cause

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain's cessation of rudder input, which was needed to maintain directional control of the airplane, about 4 seconds before the excursion, when the airplane encountered a strong and gusty crosswind that exceeded the captain's training and experience."

^^^^doesnt deserve a payout unless he was lied to- and even then- it should be our responsibility- PERIOD- dont want that responsibility, fly a desk and complain with the rest of society how overpaid pilots are.

 

[scoreboardII]

Key word, when needed, not at 5 knots, heck, not even at 50 knots.

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed.

 

[tankerhead]

Why would anyone mimic the stick shaker??

Always a little shocking on the first leg when someone does this. I mean, BURIES the freakin yoke in his crotch three times per second at 3 ft AGL on a smooth evening with zero wind. It's hard not to giggle or let loose a hearty WTF. Two legs later, same thing, repeat for three or four days.. I think most of em don't even know they're doing it.

 

[ForgedBlade]

Several years ago, I had a check airman at AT give me a real hard time because I used ailerons on the t/o roll despite the 25+ kts crosswind. He told me the we didn't have performance data for a t/o with one of the roll spoilers even partially deployed and the proper way to do a x-wind t/o is to leave the aileron neutral until rotation. Reeeaally? After some discussion at cruise, we ended up agreeing to disagree....

It may or may not be a matter of lacking data, but the simple fact is that when you use aileron on the takeoff roll, you introduce the spoilers. When the spoilers come up, there is an incredible amount of drag placed on the wing you are rolling in to. At least in the 737, you do not need to use ailerons on the takeoff roll - I've done it that way for years in some wicked winds and it has never been a problem - AS LONG AS YOU PROPERLY CORRECT WITH THE RUDDER.

The Captain of this flight f---ed up, plain and simple, and the fact that he got a payout is a total joke. If he's been at this airline, then he's obviously landed in IAH many times - the wind data there is always all over the map too. This career field has been so dumbed-down already, yet now we get rewarded for screwing up? Really? Sounds like the CEO mentality is trickling down after all.

 

[GogglesPisano]

. It's usually the same ones who cant flair without pumping the column at about 6 cycles per second.

Fun to watch. They usually have some thrust up until touchdown, as well. They make it look so hard. Then I make it look so easy. Idle by 20 ft. One smooth flare motion, fingertip pressure at the very last second. By the third day you'd think they'd learn from me, but they don't.

 

[Toobdrvr]

My new hero...

 

[airplane wizard]

I always chuckle at the ones when he releases brakes and push the power up in a crosswind takeoff, he then mashes the yolk full forward and turns the wheel over 45 degree's. Like thats going to help at 5 knots ground speed... It's usually the same ones who cant flair without pumping the column at about 6 cycles per second.

Would the A320 let you do that in normal law?

 

[Toobdrvr]

Yes, but the FCOM advises against it.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Would the A320 let you do that in normal law?

Pretty sure the controls are in direct law on the ground.

 

[tico]

I always chuckle at the ones when he releases brakes and push the power up in a crosswind takeoff, he then mashes the yolk full forward and turns the wheel over 45 degree's. Like thats going to help at 5 knots ground speed... It's usually the same ones who cant flair without pumping the column at about 6 cycles per second.

Here is the problem and I see it frequently..power comes up, no forward pressure on the yoke and no hint of crosswind correction on the ailerons. Around 80 kts, directional control begjns to suffer and by 100 kts the nose wheel begins to get light. At 120 kts we begin to get nose wheel skip and any attempt to correct is just a guess and at vr the airplane gets hauled into the air like a sliding, skipping upwind wing high ugly duckling.
In the 737,with youre average 25- 45 kt crosswind the yoke goes forward and the aileron goes slightly into the wind mostly to remind you of wind direction and speed. As speed increases above 80 kts those inputs are adjusted to maintain good positive nosewheel pressure on the ground and positive down force on the upwind wing. Just prior to vr the nose down force is neutralized and smoothly turned into nose up force. The downforce is increased on the upwind wing so that so that the airplane lifts off wings level or slightly upwind wing low. With the gear coming up the rudder takes over and yaws the airplane into the wind and the ailerons are are relaxed. That is how a 737 is flown off of short, slippery runways with 25- 45 kts of crosswind.

 

[ackattacker]

Reading the report it seems he knew proper crosswind technique and used it right up to the point he got startled and just gave up and figured he was along for the ride. Moral of the story is you always always fly the airplane right up to the point the chocks are in.

 

[j41driver]

2nd moral...if all this xwind technique stuff quits working for you and you're headed very quickly for the edge of the runway...pull the power back and mash on the brakes.

 

[scoreboardII]

Here is the problem and I see it frequently..power comes up, no forward pressure on the yoke and no hint of crosswind correction on the ailerons. Around 80 kts, directional control begjns to suffer and by 100 kts the nose wheel begins to get light. At 120 kts we begin to get nose wheel skip and any attempt to correct is just a guess and at vr the airplane gets hauled into the air like a sliding, skipping upwind wing high ugly duckling.
In the 737,with youre average 25- 45 kt crosswind the yoke goes forward and the aileron goes slightly into the wind mostly to remind you of wind direction and speed. As speed increases above 80 kts those inputs are adjusted to maintain good positive nosewheel pressure on the ground and positive down force on the upwind wing. Just prior to vr the nose down force is neutralized and smoothly turned into nose up force. The downforce is increased on the upwind wing so that so that the airplane lifts off wings level or slightly upwind wing low. With the gear coming up the rudder takes over and yaws the airplane into the wind and the ailerons are are relaxed. That is how a 737 is flown off of short, slippery runways with 25- 45 kts of crosswind.

short slippery fields or even long slippery fields. I was commenting on dry fields under normal ops. I disagree you need to put the control inputs in before you start your roll, you fly the plane as soon as you need to fly the plane.

How is directional control suffering if you're using rudder to control direction at 80 knots? If that's an issue, the pilot has other issues. Nose wheel lifting or skipping before Vr? You have a CG problem. Lastly, last time I checked, crosswind limit is 35 knots, less with poor runway conditions.

 

[tico]

short slippery fields or even long slippery fields. I was commenting on dry fields under normal ops. I disagree you need to put the control inputs in before you start your roll, you fly the plane as soon as you need to fly the plane.

How is directional control suffering if you're using rudder to control direction at 80 knots? If that's an issue, the pilot has other issues. Nose wheel lifting or skipping before Vr? You have a CG problem. Lastly, last time I checked, crosswind limit is 35 knots, less with poor runway conditions.

45 i believe for us and you are right, as long as you remember to do it and do it correctly...I would rather see agressive control early and fine tuned near flying speed than the usual sloppy, half-hearted stab in the dark at 100kts. Your method works well and it sounds lime you have it fine tuned. Not so much what I see though.

 

[dicko]

Several years ago, I had a check airman at AT give me a real hard time because I used ailerons on the t/o roll despite the 25+ kts crosswind. He told me the we didn't have performance data for a t/o with one of the roll spoilers even partially deployed and the proper way to do a x-wind t/o is to leave the aileron neutral until rotation. Reeeaally? After some discussion at cruise, we ended up agreeing to disagree....

The AOM used to say that no more than 10 degrees of aileron deflection should be used into wind. The question was asked - 10 degrees of what ? Nobody knew. It certainly wasn't roll, since the airplane was still on the ground.

The AOM now states that small aileron corrections to keep the wings level. The Check Airmen was wrong on both counts. The concern is with directional control near V1(MCG).

 

[BEfly]

A lot of different techniques out there. All good ones. I think the point is , not giving up and letting the airplane fly you. I wouldn't call the conditions ideal but certainly not hazardous for a current qualified ATP. We've all flown in this stuff, it's not difficult, it's everywhere, some times in multiple cities in a day. To get a settlement after you run a plane in a ditch sets a bad precedent. IMO

 

[pianoman]

Here is the problem and I see it frequently..power comes up, no forward pressure on the yoke and no hint of crosswind correction on the ailerons. Around 80 kts, directional control begjns to suffer and by 100 kts the nose wheel begins to get light. At 120 kts we begin to get nose wheel skip and any attempt to correct is just a guess and at vr the airplane gets hauled into the air like a sliding, skipping upwind wing high ugly duckling.
In the 737,with youre average 25- 45 kt crosswind the yoke goes forward and the aileron goes slightly into the wind mostly to remind you of wind direction and speed. As speed increases above 80 kts those inputs are adjusted to maintain good positive nosewheel pressure on the ground and positive down force on the upwind wing. Just prior to vr the nose down force is neutralized and smoothly turned into nose up force. The downforce is increased on the upwind wing so that so that the airplane lifts off wings level or slightly upwind wing low. With the gear coming up the rudder takes over and yaws the airplane into the wind and the ailerons are are relaxed. That is how a 737 is flown off of short, slippery runways with 25- 45 kts of crosswind.

This. A little forward pressure drastically improves the steering effectiveness of the nosegear. Our company limits to 10 degress of control wheel input to avoid spoiler deployment. Checked it out one time on the DFDMU page to see where 10 degrees was. Seems to work ok.

I agree- gotta just abort if it's not working!