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FAA Rest Rules: Impact on COMMUTING (doc pgs 89-92, 25)

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Voice Of Reason

Reading Is Fundamental !
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Posts
1,369
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/FAA_2010_22626.pdf

p89-92:

"M. Commuting
The impact of commuting to a duty station has been linked to increased fatigue,
most recently in the crash in Buffalo, New York. Commuting is common in the airline
industry, in part because of lifestyle choices available to pilots by virtue of their being
able to fly at no cost to their duty station, but also because of economic reasons
associated with protecting seniority on particular aircraft, frequent changes in the
flightcrew member’s home base, and low pay and regular furloughs by some carriers that
may require a pilot to live someplace with a relatively low cost of living. While
commuting to a duty station can be handled responsibly (particularly assuming one has
the means), it is also subject to abuse.
The only current impediment to irresponsible commuting in the FAA’s
regulations is the general requirement in part 91 that pilots report to work fit for duty.
CAP-371 provides that if journey time from home to normal home base is more than 1.5
hours, crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary
accommodation nearer to base. This provision is not mandatory.
The ARC unanimously recommended that pilots be reminded of their existing
obligations under part 91 to report to work fit for duty, but that the FAA impose no new
requirements. The FAA has tentatively rejected this approach.
Commuting is fundamentally a fitness for duty issue. If a flightcrew member
commutes irresponsibly, it is possible that he or she may become fatigued. A responsible
commuter plans his or her commute to minimize its impact on his or her ability to get
meaningful rest shortly before flying, thus fulfilling the proposed requirement that he or
she reports for an FDP rested and prepared to perform his or her assigned duty.
The FAA considered proposing a requirement similar to the one in CAP-371
mandating that pilots arrive at the pilot’s domicile airport in time to receive the pre-flight
rest period in that area prior to commencing flight. At first blush, this approach has
appeal, in that it would require a flightcrew member to have an opportunity for rest
immediately prior to commencing an FDP. However, because commuting constitutes an
activity conducted by a pilot on his or her own time, it is difficult to regulate. In addition, a strict commuting regulation, such as one that requires a pilot to report to a duty station
area well in advance of the scheduled flight, would not necessarily result in more
responsible commuting. A pilot could choose to commute during times that interfere
with his or her WOCL (for example, taking a red eye for an afternoon flight), leaving him
or her less rested for flight. This approach could also discourage responsible commuting.
For example, today a flightcrew member can catch a mid-morning flight to his or her
duty station and then commence his or her flying shortly after arrival a couple of hours
later. The flightcrew member would have received a full night of sleep, and would be in
a much better position to work than the individual who had taken an overnight or very
early morning flight. While the irresponsible commuter would be available to fly by
mid-afternoon, the mid-morning commuter would not be available to fly until late
evening, just as he or she is beginning to tire.
The FAA does believe that it is unreasonable to assume that an individual is
resting while commuting. Accordingly, time spent commuting, either locally or longdistance,
is not considered rest, and a certificate holder will need to consider the
commuting times required by individual flightcrew members to ensure they can reach
their home base while still receiving the required opportunity for rest. This approach is
consistent with that taken for transportation to and from a sleep facility other than home
discussed earlier in this document.
The FAA also believes it is inappropriate to simply rely on the existing
requirements in part 91 to report to work fit for duty. The FAA believes a primary reason
that pilots may engage in irresponsible commuting practices is a lack of education on
what activities are fatiguing and how to mitigate developing fatigue. The FAA has developed a draft fitness for duty AC that elaborates on the pilot’s responsibility to be
physically fit for flight prior to accepting any flight assignment, which includes the pilot
being properly rested. Additionally, the AC outlines the certificate holder’s
responsibility to ensure each flightcrew member is properly rested before assigning that
flightcrew member to any flight. That document has been placed in the docket for this
rulemaking. Additionally, the proposed training program discussed earlier contains an
element on the impact of commuting on fatigue. "
----------------------------------------------------------

(Last statement refers to additional text on p 25)

Any interpretations of what may develop from all this?
 
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All fluff. What are they going to do? Buy the homes that are underwater from the poor FOs? Not gonna happen. I guess pilots would just dump their homes and RENT next to the hubs.
 
All fluff. What are they going to do? Buy the homes that are underwater from the poor FOs? Not gonna happen. I guess pilots would just dump their homes and RENT next to the hubs.

...and really even that would only solve the problem temporarily until the airline's next swap of routes/aircraft, so I'm not sure how this would solve anything in anyone's eyes.

Perhaps the airlines would be forced to base pay on seniority rather than equipment?

Good or bad, I'm not sure if it would mean Ford & Harrison could be directing their seeming friends at the top of the unions in carrying out the scenario (in the name of a "good relationship with mgt" of course). Seems to be the new M.O. at all the majors now:
http://www.thestreet.com/print/story/10852256.html
 
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Additionally, the AC outlines the certificate holder’s
responsibility to ensure each flightcrew member is properly rested before assigning that
flightcrew member to any flight.

What airline is going to be willing to monitor the travel of individual crew members to and from work? I figure the airlines will just establish a policy of requiring all pilots to be in domicile 9 hours before report time. The FAA appears to be truly clueless about commuting and the impact of the proposed regulation. After all none of them commute, and if they get transferred, the government pays for their move and buys their home if they can't sell it.
 
Hopefully they won't require the commute to be the start of the duty day and force the carrier to monitor it.
 
If you have to report in at least 9 hrs prior, them you should get paid for it. I know it aint gonna happen. All this is doing is opening pandoras box and creating more problems than they are solving. Maybe the airlines can buy a hotel by the airport just for commuting flight crews!!! yeah right and monkeys will fly out of my @#$!!!
 
Here's a revolutionary idea: how about paying cost of living allowance for the domicile? Having bases anywhere in the Northeast or Cali has become untenable thanks to the fun economics of deregulation. Even those that do live in base often have a 2-3 hour drive to get to work due to the joys of trying to have a family in these metropolitan areas. Funny how just about every Financial firm provides this for their employees in NYC. I know crazy idea and I should probably be drug tested because of it.

*Shhhhhh* Don't tell those idiot pilots that the company provides this allowance to most managers including Chief Pilots that are already fat on override...
 
This is a way to hang a pilot for any type of incident. I am sure the first thing that the FAA, NTSB, and Airline will ask is "when did you commute in prior to today's assignment". If you gave an answer of "well I took a red-eye DH to start this 7 AM show" guess what your fried
 
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If you have to report in at least 9 hrs prior, them you should get paid for it
care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.
 
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care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

Unfortunately, the way planes and routes and bases get swapped around these days, the same people who make statements like above will be crying the opposite.

Too bad there is so much "it's all about me and what affects me this particular second" these days and no real "union" sentiment.

Do people like the above just live in short term leases like gypsies and move every second their companies decide to switch things up? Haven't yet? Oh they WILL...don't worry.
 
care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

I would agree that someone should not be paid "extra" for not living in base, however, what are you going to do when you get displaced from your cozy little base? Move? Does your company offer a realistic relocation package? Will they buy your house if it doesn't sell or pay your the difference if market conditions deteriorate? Will they pay to move your family's household goods? Will they pay to move your vehicles? What if they move your from DFW to JFK, are they going to give you a cost-of-living adjustment? What if a year later they decide to displace you to ANC? Are they going to pay that move to?

My point is that if the airlines and/or government is going to force you move to a new base every time some crew planning bean counter decides he has a more efficient way to staff the airline or XYZ airlines decides to open a new base, there needs to be some system in place that requires the company pay these expenses. I know our CBA covers some moving expenses but it is limited. I have a friend who works in middle management for a large corporation. When he was forced to move to keep his job they stepped up the the plate and fully covered the expenses I mention in the above paragraph. Will your airline?
 
care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

Are you really that brain dead?
 
care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.


To be realistic about hiring, SWA lines have to return to 07 levels of around 90 plus hours a month. We need to grow ten percent to hit that mark before SWA "breaks even" with current manning levels.

Ahhh...You should disclose that you work with only one aircraft type and a couple of bases...If you get bought do you really believe you would not have to commute? Do you really think an acquiring airline would want to put up with the ridiculous rules of operating out of the DAL "LUV" airport when they could force you to move to somewhere like Chicago? Maybe the next step would be forcing you to live on Chicago's South side because it would be where you could best report in a specified # of minutes? (Just an example...could insert any city/neighborhood into it for discussion sake)...Then they decide, nope...new traffic reduction rules from the govt...we're putting a base in West Virginia...move again...sell those last few houses too...
That is what you are setting up for YOUR future with such a stance about "commuters" as if it will never affect you. Unless you are retiring this year, don't get comfy
 
That is what you are setting up for YOUR future with such a stance about "commuters" as if it will never affect you. Unless you are retiring this year, don't get comfy

...I take that back...don't you geezers get comfy either because all that could happen, then the age limit gets raised again, just as your 401k tanks and pension gets raided and you "have" to stay...stapled near the top of the bottom of an acquiring carriers list (and remember, no good merger policy with your in house union against a larger acquiring one).

See, everything does come back to "Kevin Bacon," no matter where you THINK you stand. :cool:

Guess you won't have to worry about the new rest rules affecting crew requirements which could prompt an airline to open up some unsavory INTERNATIONAL domiciles to pass costs on to the crews, either, so...
 
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care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

Cause I keep getting F#$%^#& furloughed and I have no F%$#^&*$ idea where I am gonna get based! Yes i would love to live in base but this sh&^ keeps me from doing so. If you are going to subject me to it then pay for my move or pay me for the extra time! and dont give me that SH^% about "Finding another career".
 
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Does anyone think that all non commuting pilots are resting before flying a redeye? Plenty of them are out running errands doing c************************* or playing sports.
 
It is impossible to effectively regulate commuting. Anything that says otherwise is political pandering. This too shall pass.
 
It is impossible to effectively regulate commuting. Anything that says otherwise is political pandering. This too shall pass.

Very likely true...the really stupid part is that the general public is probably cheering this on, until flights at outstations are delayed the following days...

Are they even still doing the 3 hr tarmac delay fines or was that just a big show for a month too? More of the same.
 
The only thing our respective companies care about are butts in the seat for push. They aren't going to invest in the resources to monitor where you are and how long you've been there.
 
You all need to read whats said and not shoot the messenger.

I never said move to base, I just said show up ready for work and don't expect a company to pay you more to do it, why is that so hard?

Sure you can get displaced, the company should then pay, SWA pays. Yours doesn't? So sorry, thats not my problem, I moved 15 times in the last 25 years, my choice, no one else's.

Don' sit there and cry that you need to commute, how it's somehow your right to commute, and damn everyone else in the process.

Lots of folks move every day to follow a job, get over it.

Don't want to move if thats your only option? Your local McDonald's is always hiring.
It is impossible to effectively regulate commuting.
They don't have to, they'll put it on your back, then when you ding a wing, they lookback and see you commuted in and exceeded the rules, then they'll pull your rating, simple... mark my words. But then McDonalds may not be hiring...
 
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care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

You know what? You haven't the first idea what my deal is.....I may have a wife in a MUCH better job than this, I may have a child in a good school, I may be close to my parents and have to take care of them, rather than put them in a home.....either way, none of your arrogant business......

Airlines base people for literally MONTHS and then move them......but a hero like you who moves to follow the changes either has nothing going on worthwhile in his life or chooses to just be a jackhole and voice his opinion......If you don't feel like "babysitting", then see your Chief Pilot and pull yourself off the trip......

You must be a DEEEEE-light to fly with.....oh and by the way....I'm a commuter!! (No $hit!, right?)
 
Don' sit there and cry that you need to commute, how it's somehow your right to commute, and damn everyone else in the process.
Was agreeing with you until you produced this gem...

Yes, it *IS* my FU**ING right to commute, thankyouverymuch. This industry has ALWAYS worked that way. It's the conditions under which I accepted the job. The employer doesn't have the right to change those conditions unless they are changed under my collective bargaining agreement. The end. Period. Deal with it.

I understand you don't commute. Most of us do, that's a FACT. If they somehow take away the ability to commute to work, the system would implode. Literally.

If you make pilots waste an extra day every trip, 4 days lost or so a month, pilots WILL find a way to get it back, whether it's calling in sick, or what have you. Delays and cancellations will go through the roof, as will staffing requirements... I think the ATA is intelligent enough not to want to see that make its way into law.

Don't screw with a pilot's pay or days off. You can kill a lot of other quality of life items and they'll just suck it up. Mess with their pay or days off, and you have one pi$$ed off pilot. YMMV
 
How do we know that those in that live in domicile are adequately rested before they show up for a flight? Maybe they should be required to sign in to a hotel near the airport to ensure that they are not distracted by things like mowing the lawn or washing the car.
 
Lumberg, Lear, et al, you are in for a serious eye opening experience when these rules come to pass.

You have every right to commute.

Entitled to commute and violate the new rest rules, no. Good luck getting the company to pay for that by the way.

Again, I'm just the messenger, not the guy making the rule.

See you next time!
 
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care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

No. I would care to elaborate on why they call you Sir Dick(head), but I think you just did that for me.
 
Voice of Reason, did you actually read the NPRM? Not the discussion for the first 100 or so pages, but the actual NPRM at the end? It doesn't impose any rules whatsoever on commuting, other than to include fatigue training in recurrent ground school, to include a discussion on responsible commuting. That's it. Nothing to see here.
 
Lumberg, Lear, et al, you are in for a serious eye opening experience when these rules come to pass.

You have every right to commute.

Entitled to commute and violate the new rest rules, no. Good luck getting the company to pay for that by the way.

Again, I'm just the messenger, not the guy making the rule.

See you next time!
Easy for you to sit on that horse and preach, huh? What happens when something unforseen forces you to be based at JFK or Mexico City or whatever other crazy base pops up in the next 25 years at SWA? You gonna be singing a different tune then? Or are you gonna quit?
 
You all need to read whats said and not shoot the messenger.

I never said move to base, I just said show up ready for work and don't expect a company to pay you more to do it, why is that so hard?

Sure you can get displaced, the company should then pay, SWA pays. Yours doesn't? So sorry, thats not my problem, I moved 15 times in the last 25 years, my choice, no one else's.

Don' sit there and cry that you need to commute, how it's somehow your right to commute, and damn everyone else in the process.

Lots of folks move every day to follow a job, get over it.

Don't want to move if thats your only option? Your local McDonald's is always hiring.
They don't have to, they'll put it on your back, then when you ding a wing, they lookback and see you commuted in and exceeded the rules, then they'll pull your rating, simple... mark my words. But then McDonalds may not be hiring...

Wow, you drug your family around 15 times? No thanks I think I prefer having a happy well adjusted family. If you did that with kids and a wife you're an @ss.
 
Lumberg, Lear, et al, you are in for a serious eye opening experience when these rules come to pass.

You have every right to commute.

Entitled to commute and violate the new rest rules, no. Good luck getting the company to pay for that by the way.

Again, I'm just the messenger, not the guy making the rule.

See you next time!
Read what PCL said again and absorb it (he beat me to it).

They are NOT putting rules in place against commuting or requiring it to be added to your total duty for the day... yet...

The wording from the NPRM (if you bother to read the whole thing) says the FAA was leaning that way, then the committees studying the issue along with BOTH ALPA AND THE ATA said that it wasn't feasible. Too many people commuting, too difficult to track the system, and they decided they would start with training each pilot on these new fatigue rules in a ground school modules, the dangers of fatigue, they would "SUGGEST" that a pilot "CONSIDER" their time commuting similar to time spent in van transportation by the company to/from a hotel, i.e. it is now a part of your total duty day, and continue to leave it to the pilot to act responsibly when commuting.

In the future, if another person does an all-night red-eye commute then starts a 12-14 hour duty day and buries one in at the end of the day talking about being tired on the CVR... well... for all intents and purposes, this is "fair warning" from the FAA that failure of pilots to commute responsibly will "POSSIBLY" result in actual regulations on commuting.

Believe me, airline management doesn't want commuting rules in place, either. It would result in the short-term meltdown of operational integrity, followed by a LOT of additional costs in training and staffing as they add more employees, shorten up the trips, which as a result kills the trip average credit, requiring people to work more trips, less days off at home, and management's life would get just as difficult as ours would.

No one wants that, hence why THERE ARE NO RULES ABOUT COMMUTING IN THIS NPRM.

I suggest you read it in its entirety before you post about the issue again, just so you can post intelligently on the subject. Your call, of course (that's not a moderator position, this is just my personal take on the issue - 121.471 has always been near and dear to my heart). ;)
 

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