F9 still in play

[shearedshaft]

I guess you guys are right, we should stop with the "pounding". The only stuff I know is what SWAPA put out after the whole deal went down and their timeline (part of which someone posted here) sounds very believable.

When I read, "No one on the SWAPA M&A committee contacted FAPA on Thursday", it sounds like somebody is making up a new history. Unless our M&A guys are lying, which I doubt, it's my opinion that someone over at FAPA is telling the regular Joes some tales.

Then again, I've never even met any of our M&A guys, maybe they aren't being truthful with all of the communication they put out. But the email updates I got sure look believable.

It really comes down to a glass is half-empty/glass is half-full look.

Was the TA negotiated with Frontier and RAH prior to the auction a good thing or bad? I would view it as bad, since it was a done deal prior to even talking to the SWAPA guys. Perhaps Frontier guys would view it as good, since it was a known quantity.

Was walking away from talks good or bad? I say "bad", because I know the value of a stable career. But I'm not a senior Frontier captain who would have to start over.

So I'll take my other SWAPA poster's advice and drop this whole thing. I doubt anyone is not familiar with where I stand.

I am also running the risk of repeating information about things where I wasn't present and only got a union update after the fact, lord knows if things would have looked different from someone who was actually there. Union updates are often scrubbed, so maybe there's more to the story.

 

[Daddy]

For the record, stapling IS a form of seniority list integration and the offer was a staple WITH pay protection. I'm done with this...good luck with Republic

 

[OpenClimb]

Pay protection does no good if you're furloughed. What never seems to make the news is that Southwest was planning to furlough 2/3rds of the F9 pilot group.

SWA's own numbers suggest that their airline is 5-7% overstaffed. (300-350 pilots) SWA was only taking 80% of the F9 aircraft. 20% of F9's remaining 640 pilots = 128 pilots. 128 + 300 = 428 pilots overstaffed. 428/640 = ~2/3rds. Furlough fodder. That's what it's called.

Also, since all of you folks seem to be so "in the know..." Isn't it true that the SWAPA folks had technical difficulties with their whiz-bang teleconferencing gear and THAT delayed the start of the meeting...?

Isn't it also true that SWA changed the time for its plan presentation from first thing in the morning until ~3:30pm? Even if FAPA was comfortable proceding with SLI discussions without its President present, wouldn't it have been difficult to negotiate without knowing that SWA was only planning on buying 80% of the fleet. Doesn't that seem like relevant information?

Only time will tell whether the F9 group made the right decision. I don't know and the collective "you" of Flightinfo don't know. So stop pretending like you do and move on.

As others have said. We just drive the bus when and where they tell us.

 

[kwick]

If you start with a ridiculous staple proposal, why are you surprised by the response?

You guys gave up a dominant Denver hub, international routes, and access to new markets like DCA and ATl.

All you had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot seniority list. DOH or relative seniority with fences.

Since Frontier brought the planes and routes to the merger, you guys essentially had to give up nothing.

I'd be mad if I passed up on that opportunity too.

 

[SWA/FO]

I know! You guys got F9'ed by your union!

 

[tathagatha]

In reality, the SWAPA negotiators only had authority for a staple. Anything else would have required a vote, and that takes time. In this case, it was staple or nothing within the time constraints. Up or Down?, down is fine.

GL,
T

 

[walkthasky]

come on...

If you start with a ridiculous staple proposal, why are you surprised by the response?

You guys gave up a dominant Denver hub, international routes, and access to new markets like DCA and ATl.

All you had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot seniority list. DOH or relative seniority with fences.

Since Frontier brought the planes and routes to the merger, you guys essentially had to give up nothing.

I'd be mad if I passed up on that opportunity too.

Ridiculous ? I don't think so. SWA didn't give up anything. They made a bid and it did not work out. All we had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot list....oh yeah that makes sense. Weaving a list of pilots from a bankrupt carrier that started in mid 90's putting there number one guy behind someone hired at SWA in the 70's, and not to mention the 70% plus raise he'd get....yeah thats all . Oh and put some of our guys in jeopardy of furlough. We ain't mad dude, get over it, all is well, and we all wish F9 the best. Stop stirring the pot!

 

[tzskipper]

Ridiculous ? I don't think so. SWA didn't give up anything. They made a bid and it did not work out. All we had to do was weave 600 guys into a 6000 pilot list....oh yeah that makes sense. Weaving a list of pilots from a bankrupt carrier that started in mid 90's putting there number one guy behind someone hired at SWA in the 70's, and not to mention the 70% plus raise he'd get....yeah thats all . Oh and put some of our guys in jeopardy of furlough. We ain't mad dude, get over it, all is well, and we all wish F9 the best. Stop stirring the pot!

Imo, the fair thing would have been to put the number one F9 pilot one number junior to the SWA pilot with the closest, earlier date of hire. It would be from that point down that "relative seniority" should have applied, including a domicile fence and seat fence.

Skipper

 

[StaySeated]

This is now the second time I will ask you for the source of your "easily verifiable" facts. SWAPA distributed their event summary of those two days. If FAPA has done the same, I have yet to see anyone post it here. Even though it is all just water under the bridge at this point, I would genuinely like to know if I have been lied to by my union.

I didn't see the first time, and your question is a reasonable one.

If SWAPA is stating that they contacted anyone on the FAPA M&A committee on Thursday, then yes they are lying. It didn't happen.

N1atecon - I have read all of the updates. The one that you reference only tells half of the story, actually less than half. Regarding the furlough compensation item, it was going to cost every active pilot less than .80 per hour of credit and it was a negotiable item just like every other item on the proposal. I thought that SWAPA was highly regarded for "looking out for their own" and as you and every other supposed SWAPA member on this board has stated numerous times "every FAPA member was going to have recall rights" and "every FAPA member was going to have a SWAPA number from day one". Is .80 per hour too much to ask for a fellow SWAPA member? Or did we have a different opinion of the "excess FAPA pilots"?

SWAPA is doing exactly what they should be doing, telling the membership their version of events. You need to read the "updates" and take note of what they don't say. Several readers are connecting dots that just don't exist.

Take a look at the "summary of those two days" from a different perspective. SWAPA ended the meeting on Wednesday and requested everyone to meet in Dallas the next day, unfortunately around 2pm MST the next day SWA removed their bid. Several SWAPA members wanted this deal, especially the junior guys. Who would YOU rather blame, FAPA or your own company?

Take a further step back and consider the following. Your FO's blew up the last TA. Your FO's have the most to lose from the failed F9 acquisition. If your FO's realize that they have been led down the wrong path for the third time in less than a year, they will go absolutely ballistic. If you are looking down the barrel of a furlough, and your company just failed to purchase a furlough safety net, then your just adding fuel to the fire, never mind the fact that the only leverage you had with your ongoing negotiations just got acquired by a competitor. How many millions of dollars have been taken out of the company's position since the failed TA ratification? SWAPA is in the middle of the greatest PR campaign in recent history. I commend them for their efforts, and I would do the same exact thing in their position.

I really have had an interest in "setting the record straight", but I am losing that interest at a rapid rate.

If you want to believe that FAPA walked away, than so be it. Don't care. If you want to believe that FAPA presented a "take it or leave it offer", then you are welcome to live in that fantasy world.

What I know or what you believe really doesn't matter. I wish you all the best regardless.

And Gup, you owe me several beers. PM me your schedule.

I am going to save my energy for the inevitable "FAPA vs RAH/IBT/YX/ALPA/Globalwarming/PETA" battle that I am sure is going to fire up any day now.

 

[FlickerFade]

It's funny really, there is no national airline union. We are all a loosely aligned group of individuals who make up airline seniority lists (and individual MEC's).

Any semblance of national unity is exposed as fraudulent when mergers are considered.

Outside of matters of safety and political lobbying there is no solidarity.