F18 Down?

[okcplt]

You may be right at some point. But, right now you're wrong. It's way too early to be questioning the pilot's decision making.

Huh?

The accident is 3 mos old. The facts are known. The Marine Corp has already punished those it feels are responsible.

The pilot's status is grounded.

When do we question his decision making?

In the civilian world the PIC, has the final authority and responsibility of how the aircraft is operated.

 

[transpac]

Huh?

The accident is 3 mos old. The facts are known. The Marine Corp has already punished those it feels are responsible.

The pilot's status is grounded.

When do we question his decision making?

In the civilian world the PIC, has the final authority and responsibility of how the aircraft is operated.

The pilot being grounded (but still wearing wings) means the USMC is still considering his status. Apparently the board with the long green table hasn't met yet, or at least hasn't released a decision. All I know is what I read in the papers. If you have privileged info, maybe you do have a basis for your personal opinion. As for me, I haven't heard or read anything that confirms that a reasonable person with the same set of facts wouldn't have made the same decision as the pilot. We don't know the command atmosphere, the training scenarios in his background, or whether or not he was unduly influenced to bring the bird home. Certainly if he had attempted to land at North Island he wouldn't have crashed near Miramar. In the same vein, he wouldn't have crashed if he'd stayed in bed instead of going flying.

 

[Bluto13]

This guy is doing his first CQ in the Hornet, a nervous time for anyone, and has mechanical problems, brings his jet back to land and has multiple senior sources telling him what to do. No one here knows how they would react given his experience level and these circumstances. Wait for the actual JAG to come out and then at least you will have the facts to acurately second guess everyone's decisions, good and bad.

 

[bagasticks]

I thought the "don't turn into a dead engine" crap died when WWll ended.

depends on the airframe. . and if you're performance limited or control limited, weight, etc. .

 

[ChrisJT6]

Unknown details

This young Marine's IPs no doubt instructed him to come to Mirimar on the base radio. So, if he disregarded their orders and spiralled down from 20K ontop of North Isld...experienced the same engine failures and then crashed into Coronado's Belle Hotel...would you still have your Monday morning genius comments?

 

[SIG600]

1.) The dude was a student with barely any time in the jet. That's why they call them accidents. Why don't you guys go flame the guys that spun in the Q400 in New York, apparently you're all above making mistakes (and passing judgement without fact).

2.) The jet was UP. The fuel code MSP they are referring to is a "Safe For Flight" code by the book.

Again, you guys don't know all the facts but love to jump to conclusions. Ableone, you're a troll.

 

[milky]

The mistakes that were made would have likely caused the jet to crash on approach to any airport. Depending on the runway used, it could have killed more or less people depending on where it came down. The accident was very likely avoidable. Many of the posts in this thread quoting 'military sources' are WAY off base compared to the facts of the situation.

Just pay attention to this: many Officers were fired and many personnel were severely disciplined, but the pilot has not been disciplined. That should tell you whom the JAG investigation has told the powers that be is responsible for the accident. Military flying and civilian flying are very different and many of you know. The pilot allowed himself to be put into a bad situation because of poor decisions of his and those who command him. He is the PIC and ultimately responsible. If the JAG investigation had found him to be criminally negligent, standing in front of the long green table would not matter as he would be facing disciplinary action like the other four officers that were fired.

As I and Sig have said in this thread many times, you guys run off at the mouth like you know something. Those that know, know you are showing your asses with little clue to reality.

 

[JungleJett]

....does anywhere hear music playing in the background?

 

[ableone]

1.) The dude was a student with barely any time in the jet. That's why they call them accidents. Why don't you guys go flame the guys that spun in the Q400 in New York, apparently you're all above making mistakes (and passing judgement without fact).

2.) The jet was UP. The fuel code MSP they are referring to is a "Safe For Flight" code by the book.

Again, you guys don't know all the facts but love to jump to conclusions. Ableone, you're a troll.

More name calling and smearing with no facts. You are completely predictable.

There are accidents that are the result of unknown unknowns. We accurately term these occurrences "accidents."

The Marine Corps, however, has termed this an accident that was "completely preventable" and that should not have occurred. This was their conclusion, not mine.

The second engine failed. It was somehow starved of fuel, either through operator error, mechanical failure or a combination of the two. The Marines' have said as much while being as vague as possible.

With respect to the Q400, the last word from investigators is that the airplane was properly configured and operated but it looks like ice aft of the boots caused the CL to shift forward resulting in a 30 degree pitch up and deep stall.

If, however, it looks like it was a crew error you can be sure that they will be eviscerated.

 

[Cobra17]

You would make a great check airman. That kid was set up to fail and did the best he could, given the circumstances. I would fly with him any day. You...not so much.

 

[SIG600]

More name calling and smearing with no facts. You are completely predictable.

There are accidents that are the result of unknown unknowns. We accurately term these occurrences "accidents."

The Marine Corps, however, has termed this an accident that was "completely preventable" and that should not have occurred. This was their conclusion, not mine.

The second engine failed. It was somehow starved of fuel, either through operator error, mechanical failure or a combination of the two. The Marines' have said as much while being as vague as possible.

With respect to the Q400, the last word from investigators is that the airplane was properly configured and operated but it looks like ice aft of the boots caused the CL to shift forward resulting in a 30 degree pitch up and deep stall.

If, however, it looks like it was a crew error you can be sure that they will be eviscerated.

By your logic, we should flame everyone because by default every accident is preventable. You need to get off your high horse and reread the last line of milky's post. If you're too lazy, let me repost for you.

".....you guys run off at the mouth like you know something. Those that know, know you are showing your asses with little clue to reality."

You are the posterchild of this statement. Look at you, you're already throwing out speculation on the Q400 incident from "what you heard". Not to mention "evicerating" a crew that paid the ultimate price, regardless. Wow you ARE an a$$. Crap like that is the epitome of unprofessionalism in our community. Just shut up already, you know about 25% of the story of this accident, the rest is privledged info.

 

[ableone]

Wow, Both of you are arrogant jacka$$es.

The "kid" was set up to fail?

First of all I don't see anywhere I have criticized the pilot. If this is indeed true (set up for failure) than more heads should roll than have currently been cut. If your statement is true there is a problem with the Marine's training system and with overall discipline.

Sig, you apparently are so angry you can't read. I clearly stated that there were two accident categories and the Marine corps has classified this one as preventable, not me.

As for the Q400 my info is not what I have "heard". My information comes from the official NTSB releases. I actually read the reports while you apparently only know what is kicked around in the ready room. As far as my eviscerated comment, I was referring to what would happen to the crew on these boards and in the media, not any action on my part.

The stupidest part of your post is where you claim that only you have the real info because most if it is "privileged."

First of all the information I am working with is that which has been released from the Marine Corps.

According to them:

"The accident was preventable"
"The accident should not have happened."
"The accident pilot will probably not fly again."

These are their conclusions, not mine.

Second of all the privileged claim is unimpressive and childish. This is usually an indication that those with the information (The people responsible for the crash are the ones investigating the crash and get to decide what information is released.) are embarrassed by the final report. The military has a history of this type of behavior. (REF Bradley Fighting Vehicle)

There was a whiff of this when the Marine Corps attempted to pressure the FAA into not releasing the ATC tapes.

Your basic premise seems to be that only the military has the right to investigate, have access to final conclusions and pass final judgment. All other parties should shut the F up and be grateful that their own stupidity (i.e. living near a military airfield) did not cause their death.

I find it tragic that after you attempt to blame a family for their own deaths because, in your opinion, they were stupid enough to live near a military base:

Would you be surprised? Park your car under a tree and birds are going to sh1t on it.

you can't tolerate any outside (civilian) scrutiny of what is pretty clearly a tragedy with its roots in incompetent operations.

If you were man enough to express these sentiments under your actual signature you would no doubt face disciplinary action. This should tell you something about how stupid your posts are.

In fact I will take care of it for you. I am forwarding your posts to the San Diego Union Tribune with a note to them about how one military pilot feels about both those who have the temerity to question military competence and those who are so incredibly stupid as to live near a military base. You seem to believe they deserved to die.

I hope the JAG office takes an interest in your identity.

 

[Bluto13]

JAG was cancelled a few seasons ago, although Katherine Bell is still the hottest Marine officer ever.

 

[ableone]

JAG was cancelled a few seasons ago, although Katherine Bell is still the hottest Marine officer ever.

Say it ain't so.

 

[Cobra17]

JAG was cancelled a few seasons ago, although Katherine Bell is still the hottest Marine officer ever.

True dat!

 

[SIG600]

The stupidest part of your post is where you claim that only you have the real info because most if it is "privileged."

The JAGMAN is public info, the SIR (which contains the details, reconstruction, analysis, recommendations) is NOT public info. I'm sure you knew that with the GLOBAL SA you seem to carry everywhere.

 

[ableone]

The JAGMAN is public info, the SIR (which contains the details, reconstruction, analysis, recommendations) is NOT public info. I'm sure you knew that with the GLOBAL SA you seem to carry everywhere.

Witty and pithy. An improvement, I will give you that.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Guys just ignore Ableone he's a bitter guy with a grudge against Military pilots. In another of his post he refers to a USAF pilot that went from Mommy and daddy's house to the USAF and then WN and that he had his hand held Thur his career unlike Ableone.

He's a Victim of the witch hunts guys and still can't get over it. just ignore him and don't say anything about the Clinton Policy because then he's gonna get into a Hissy fit:bawling: and call the Moderators on you. Because were not allowed to make personal attacks even though he Calls people Idiots all the time that don't agree with him and that is considered a Personal Attack under the rules.

 

[ableone]

Guys just ignore Ableone he's a bitter guy with a grudge against Military pilots. In another of his post he refers to a USAF pilot that went from Mommy and daddy's house to the USAF and then WN and that he had his hand held Thur his career unlike Ableone.

He's a Victim of the witch hunts guys and still can't get over it. just ignore him and don't say anything about the Clinton Policy because then he's gonna get into a Hissy fit:bawling: and call the Moderators on you. Because were not allowed to make personal attacks even though he Calls people Idiots all the time that don't agree with him and that is considered a Personal Attack under the rules.

Another angry post completely devoid of facts or reason.

It was not exclusively a personal attack, however, as popgo included his own pseudo psychological analysis.

Just for the record I have no problem with military pilots. They are just like the civil pilot population; some bad, fair, good and great.

I was taught to fly jets by military pilots and some of my favorite partners in the sky are military or ex military.

Popgoes, there is no reason for me to call you an idiot, as your atrocious syntax, poor grammar and fourth grade writing style speak more eloquently about your intellect than I ever could.

P.S. "Witch hunts"? You are going to have to further explain that one.

(I apologize to any fourth graders who may feel, and rightly so, slighted by my comment.)

 

[popgoesbubble]

Wow that's pretty good Ableone do you close your eyes when you Speak and then Bend over and Sniff your own Farts too?

http://southparkstudios.com/guide/1002http://southparkstudios.com/clips/155202