F18 Down?

[SIG600]

When it's done (and right).

 

[Andy Neill]

Update: This from MSNBC this afternoon--------
SAN DIEGO - The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four members of a Korean family was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.

Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.

Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose, the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.

That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.

Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash.

Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.

Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.

Before the crash, the pilot ejected safely.

Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home — Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.

The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.

 

[ableone]

While some reports indicate that the airplane was closer to MCAS Mirimar, most indicate that he launched from a carrier operating southwest of Coronado.

The first engine failed due to an oil leak and the second due to fuel starvation. The fuel starvation occurred because of a problem moving fuel around. Whether this was a mechanical failure, a pilot error or a combination of the two has not been made clear.

The local congressional leaders were briefed by the military and were told the accident was "absolutely" preventable.

Thirteen officers and men have been disciplined as a result of the crash.

No final decision has been made about whether or not the pilot will face disciplinary action though one member of the congressional delegation remarked that he was doubtful the pilot would again fly for the Marines.

 

[KigAir]

Who has final authority of a military aircraft while it's in the air? The pilot or people on the ground?

 

[JungleJett]

Who has final authority of a military aircraft while it's in the air? The pilot or people on the ground?

The pilot...but any action he or she takes, you must be able to show you used sound judgment. If not, then you must be accountable for your actions.

As a pilot, you should use every resource available to you, many of those are outside the cockpit.

I was not in the seat of that airplane...but the investigation is revealing.

 

[okcplt]

Update: This from MSNBC this afternoon--------
SAN DIEGO - The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four members of a Korean family was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.

Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.

Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose, the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.

That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.

Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash.

Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.

Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.

Before the crash, the pilot ejected safely.

Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home — Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.

The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.

One word: GROUNDED.

When do the criminal proceedings start?

 

[Fearless Tower]

The details of the Marine Corps briefing were posted in the SD Tribune yesterday....rather revealing.

Apparently when the pilot first checked in to Socal Approach, he reported that he had an engine failure and possible problems with his other engine which led to the approach controller twice offering the straight in approach for 36 at NZY (he was approaching from 50 nm Southwest of San Diego).....he chose to continue to Mirimar, but apparently had the presence of mind to request the equipment at Mirimar???

A couple of other interesting notes that I'd be interested in hearing from any F-18 guys or other fighter jet guys: When the plane hit the house, it apparently had the gear down.....what operates the gear in the Hornet? Is it an eledctro-hydraulic pump, or a hydraulic pump off an engine accessory drive? If it was electrical, I would think you would want to bring the gear up as soon as the second engine failed.....would have made all the difference in that plane landing in the canyon just beyond the house.

Also, according the the briefing, he apparently made a left 270 degree turn over La Jolla to line up with rwy 6 because he didn't want to turn into the dead engine......with the engines so close together, does turning toward a dead engine really matter that much, particularly with thrust reduced during a descent?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Interested in SIG600 comments...............

 

[bagasticks]

The details of the Marine Corps briefing were posted in the SD Tribune yesterday....rather revealing.

Apparently when the pilot first checked in to Socal Approach, he reported that he had an engine failure and possible problems with his other engine which led to the approach controller twice offering the straight in approach for 36 at NZY (he was approaching from 50 nm Southwest of San Diego).....he chose to continue to Mirimar, but apparently had the presence of mind to request the equipment at Mirimar???

A couple of other interesting notes that I'd be interested in hearing from any F-18 guys or other fighter jet guys: When the plane hit the house, it apparently had the gear down.....what operates the gear in the Hornet? Is it an eledctro-hydraulic pump, or a hydraulic pump off an engine accessory drive? If it was electrical, I would think you would want to bring the gear up as soon as the second engine failed.....would have made all the difference in that plane landing in the canyon just beyond the house.

Also, according the the briefing, he apparently made a left 270 degree turn over La Jolla to line up with rwy 6 because he didn't want to turn into the dead engine......with the engines so close together, does turning toward a dead engine really matter that much, particularly with thrust reduced during a descent?

recalling my hornet maintenance days. . the gear is operated hydraulically unless you lose hyd 2b (right motor) in which case you rotate the gear handle 90 degrees to blow it down via accumulator (apu accumulator i think) so putting them back up would not have been practical assuming the right motor was tits up. . Im not questioning the PIC's actions though, just sharing some systems knowledge. .

one of you hornet clowns correct me if im wrong. .

 

[JungleJett]

Interested in SIG600 comments...............

Shouldn't you be mowing Praters grass and washing his car....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Shouldn't you be mowing Praters grass and washing his car....

Well SIG600 was pretty opinionated about the opinions posted on this thread that the F18 driver should have gone to Coronado....

What are your thoughts? Was Miramar the best choice?

 

[JungleJett]

Well SIG600 was pretty opinionated about the opinions posted on this thread that the F18 driver should have gone to Coronado....

What are your thoughts? Was Miramar the best choice?

Maybe you are done with all the grunt work he has you doing....did you trim the bushes and sweep the garage? You guys got dinner plans tonight? Wear something nice....



I was not in the seat.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe you are done with all the grunt work he has you doing....did you trim the bushes and sweep the garage? You guys got dinner plans tonight? Wear something nice....



I was not in the seat.....

Neither were those that concluded or eluded that he should have gone to Coronado..... do you think Miramar was the still the right choice?

 

[SIG600]

One word: GROUNDED.

When do the criminal proceedings start?

You know, I wrote an entire dissertation in response to this, because you don't know d1ck about what you're talking about... but it's a total waste of my time. I could stuff your foot down your mouth for you, but it's not worth my time and arguing on the internet is stupid. You think you know all the details from the press, you don't know sh1t.

Do I think he should have gone to Coronado (North Island)? Yes, I thought that from the beginning with the initial grumblings within the community of what happened. He could have also made it to Miramar, if several critical mistakes had not been made. I don't know the full extent of the info released by the JAGMAN, and anything released in the SIR is confidential, so I'm not going into detail. Lets leave it at an inexperienced pilot, miscommunication, and some poor desicions that resulted in a tragedy. Everyone of you motherfvckers on here casting judgement without ANY of the details must think you're immune to mistake, and that you have any semblance of idea of how complicated the situation was.

 

[ableone]

You know, I wrote an entire dissertation in response to this, because you don't know d1ck about what you're talking about... but it's a total waste of my time. I could stuff your foot down your mouth for you, but it's not worth my time and arguing on the internet is stupid. You think you know all the details from the press, you don't know sh1t.

Your standard response. Call the other guy names and say you could respond to his arguments but you choose not to, then close with a personal insult.

Do I think he should have gone to Coronado (North Island)? Yes, I thought that from the beginning with the initial grumblings within the community of what happened.

Interesting, because all you said in earlier posts was that people who buy houses near military fields should not be surprised by military jets falling on their houses. I believe you made an analogy to parking your car under a tree full of birds and not expecting it to be covered in bird s.

He could have also made it to Miramar, if several critical mistakes had not been made. I don't know the full extent of the info released by the JAGMAN, and anything released in the SIR is confidential, so I'm not going into detail. Lets leave it at an inexperienced pilot, miscommunication, and some poor desicions that resulted in a tragedy. Everyone of you motherfvckers on here casting judgement without ANY of the details must think you're immune to mistake, and that you have any semblance of idea of how complicated the situation was.

Finally you close by calling any poster who has the temerity to voice an opinion that does not parallel your own as a "mutherfvcker", how droll.

It appears that an airplane with a known fuel system fault was launched (i.e. an unairworthy aircraft) and subsequently a second fault developed (an engine failure). The operator then allowed the aircraft to be operated over a populated area when an approach over an unpopulated area (water) was not only available but offered the advantage of a shorter routing. The result at the end of this decision tree was a dead family.

It's a good thing it was a military operation because in the real world this is called criminal negligence, possibly even rising to the level of depraved indifference.

Now go ahead and call me some names instead of discussing any of the issues.

I desperately hope that you and Milky are not representative of the maturity level of the average officer in tactical aviation.

 

[transpac]

I thought the "don't turn into a dead engine" crap died when WWll ended.

 

[okcplt]

Wow I'm so glad to see so many Civilian Only pilots on here being experts on Military aircraft and procedures (OKcplt) Whats next when are you guys gonna recommend that only Sully should be allowed to fly for the military?

OH and Ableone Your a Fag with that Comment Directed at SIG. In the Real World? WTF dude you know nothing about flying in the Real World yeah engaging auto flight at 1000' and off at 200' Yeah your living on the edge man.

You wanna fly in the Real World? Do us a favor go fly your MU2 or PA42 over Afghanistan or Iraq I'm sure there are a few people with SA16 that would love to test your skills we'll see how well you handle that emergency because between you and OKcplt you guys are legends in your own mind.

Watching JAG and flying the F-18 on your computer at home doesn't mean you know sh#t about what it takes to be a Military pilot or for that matter a Officer of Marines.

Oh and I agree with SIG 100% any fool that buys a home next to a military airport that is in the approach departure area is a FOOL!!! that's like living behind a Firing Range

http://www.kpbs.org/news/local;id=14010


Marine Corps Says Jet Crash Was Avoidable
Mar 03, 2009
Katie Orr

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SHARE THIS: DEL.ICIO.US | DIGG | STUMBLEUPON An investigation into the December crash of a F-18 military jet shows the accident was avoidable. The Marine Corp says a series of bad decisions, a lack of communication and a failure to follow procedures all contributed to the crash that killed four people on the ground. KPBS reporter Katie Orr has details.
The Marine Corps investigation shows the right engine of the F-18 jet experienced an oil pressure problem as it was doing drills from off the coast. The pilot was told to shut the engine down and land at Navel Station North Island. A few moments later the left engine began having problems.
Colonel John Rupp says the pilot wasn't aware of the severity of the jet's problems and elected to fly to Marine Corp Air Station Miramar instead.
"Despite everything that has occurred to this point, if the pilot had elected to land at North Island, this mishap would have bee prevented," he says.
Rupp says throughout the ordeal no one involved realized the urgency of the situation and numerous emergency procedures were disregarded. The pilot remains grounded, four officers were removed from duty and nine others have been disciplined.
Katie Orr, KPBS News

Hey 'pop goes your pimple'...it doesn't appear the Marine Corp agrees with your assessment:

"Marine Corps Says Jet Crash Was Avoidable"

"The pilot was told to shut the engine down and land at Navel Station North Island."

Colonel John Rupp says the pilot wasn't aware of the severity of the jet's problems and elected to fly to Marine Corp Air Station Miramar instead.

An entire family needlessly wiped out...

Good thing this didn't happen in the San Fran Bay area. The fall-out there would have been unstoppable.

 

[transpac]

I'm afraid that my military brethern are implying that the differences in military and civilian missions somehow carry over to basic airmanship and aerodynamics. If I've learned anything during the past 14000 hours, its that all airplanes obey the same aerodynamic laws. There's also no doubt that military flight training, like most other military training activities, is top notch. It's interesting to note that only military flight training inspires the lucky graduates to look down upon those who came forward via a different route. In fact, I've never heard any other military professional speak of his or her superiority to civilian trained individuals in the same field.

 

[Captainzero1]

I told you the pilot screwed the pooch by trying to make it back to an airfield over a populated area. As a former enlisted swine assigned to the 35 and 12 TFS in Korea and Japan, those pilots I worked with would never have done that.

 

[transpac]

I told you the pilot screwed the pooch by trying to make it back to an airfield over a populated area. As a former enlisted swine assigned to the 35 and 12 TFS in Korea and Japan, those pilots I worked with would never have done that.

You may be right at some point. But, right now you're wrong. It's way too early to be questioning the pilot's decision making.