F18 Down?

[CatfishVT9]

???????????

That wasn't bravado, it was making a point that he knows the aircraft.

Also, you guys that are guessing "fuel starvation" are barking uo the wrong tree. Bingo from the ship is similar to a civilian divert. Yes, Bingo is emergency fuel, but planned fuel on deck is about 20 mins, so unless there were extenuating circumstances like unforseen WX enroute, he had the gas to make it.

No one ever said Mil guys don't make mistakes. Fact is, most mishaps (there are no accidents) are pilot error. With that said though, let's chill out until we know all the facts here.

And nobody make a joke about any situation.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

you'll recall this thread....

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=114666&highlight=viper

 

[Huggyu2]

Yes, Bingo is emergency fuel, but planned fuel on deck is about 20 mins,

Sir,
Just to clarify: the Navy's definition of "Bingo fuel" is COMPLETELY different than the USAF's, e.g. it's not "Emergency fuel" for us.
Not that it's wrong; it's just different. I've had this discussion many times with my Navy brethren; it's always a good one to have in the bar!
Just want to make sure we're all on the same sheet of music.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Yep. Bingo at the boat means no more chances, head for the beach.......and then the O'Club.

 

[milky]

I haven't seen a single military guy on here boasting or bragging. I've seen guys that know what it's like to be put to really hard decisions almost every time they fly get frustrated at guys that have no clue about using an aircraft for more than a mode of transportation. Flying around the carrier, especially at night, is something that can never be fully understood unless you've done it. That's not bravado. That's just reality. Even a seasoned veteran with thousands of tactical hours can get into extremis in less than seconds.

We make mistakes. Anybody that claimed otherwise would have gotten kicked out of tactical aviation before he made it to winging.

The Navy tacair guys I know never boast or brag besides maybe some light ready room banter after a good 1v1. Those that act too cool usually get crushed. But, we do pride ourselves on being brutally honest with each other in our debriefs about every minute detail in the flight. Nothing like your civilian training. You'd fire your CFI if he told you how screwed up you were the way that military IPs do.

I know plenty of mil guys that fly for airlines. There are usually two reasons that they do not talk about their military experience. They know why that is, and if you didn't have a chip on your shoulder, you'd probably know, too.

As for the subsonic airflow crap, my point was that i've seen a guy hit the back of the ship, jam his gear deep into his intakes, severly fod bot of his engines and safely land the jet with no landing gear and a bent hook. I bet you that guy will never tell you he didn't make a mistake that flight. But, he also took a barely limping jet with less than emergency fuel back to the beach and get it on deck.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I haven't seen a single military guy on here boasting or bragging. I've seen guys that know what it's like to be put to really hard decisions almost every time they fly get frustrated at guys that have no clue about using an aircraft for more than a mode of transportation. Flying around the carrier, especially at night, is something that can never be fully understood unless you've done it. That's not bravado. That's just reality. Even a seasoned veteran with thousands of tactical hours can get into extremis in less than seconds.

Agreed! That is why AF pilots will always look up to and envy Naval Aviators! check this out!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7166330178234459087

We make mistakes. Anybody that claimed otherwise would have gotten kicked out of tactical aviation before he made it to winging.

I am sure of it... yet there are guys that for some reason have a empty place in their ego after flying a tactical jet, that have the need to come on FI and look for respect via arguing... it is akin to a bully looking for a fight.... or trying to change the mind of a Marine.

The Navy tacair guys I know never boast or brag besides maybe some light ready room banter after a good 1v1. Those that act too cool usually get crushed. But, we do pride ourselves on being brutally honest with each other in our debriefs about every minute detail in the flight. Nothing like your civilian training. You'd fire your CFI if he told you how screwed up you were the way that military IPs do.

Again with you and economics and the market. MIL training has nothing to do with the market, as a CFI and employee of a small business CFI's had to critique tactfully so the customer would sign up for his next lesson that day. Petty stuff compared to your world, but you brought it up....

I know plenty of mil guys that fly for airlines. There are usually two reasons that they do not talk about their military experience. They know why that is, and if you didn't have a chip on your shoulder, you'd probably know, too.

Yet there are MIL guys (just like CIV guys.... hey wait a minute, you and I are examples) that come on FI and have to defend MIL service...

As for the subsonic airflow crap, my point was that i've seen a guy hit the back of the ship, jam his gear deep into his intakes, severly fod bot of his engines and safely land the jet with no landing gear and a bent hook. I bet you that guy will never tell you he didn't make a mistake that flight. But, he also took a barely limping jet with less than emergency fuel back to the beach and get it on deck.

What about Al Haynes and his crew? Sorry, how silly of me to bring it up... What about the fuel exhaustion on the A330 that "dead sticked" it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

Fact is this guy, SIG used examples of rogue MIL pilots who wrecked jets due to carelessness and tried to pass it off as "the awe, danger and sacrifice" of flying tactical jets...

I have never meet anyone who does not appreciate MIL service and is not impressed with tactical jets.... But that is not the real discussion here.... it is individual attitude of superiority of a few, who try and depict others as ignorant and ungrateful.

We get it. But as tax payers, we get to ask questions why our familes are killed in their homes.

Instead of arguing with monikers on FI why not put your Bag on and go speak at a high school or museum.....

 

[KigAir]

not to mention it was the second tom kitty that individual had donated back to the tax payer. .

How generous of him. What happend the first time?

 

[SIG600]

Blah blah

Dude you've got issues. There was zero chest thumping, you've just got self confindence issues. I cited not ONE incident in my post, merely situations the jet has been put in... all for the sole purpose of reiterating milky's post that an uncontained engine failure is pure uneducated speculation... which if you remember is what started this entire thread. Guys that know NOTHING, citing media reports and rumor, second guessing the guy in the seat. It's unprofessional and infuriating. That's it.

 

[SUNDOWN]

Wise decisions. Catfish is a retired CO, and distinguished vet. I'd be willing to bet he's seen the dark side of aviation on a personal basis more times than you.

One would think that a retired CO and distinguished vet wouldn't spend so much time on flight info engaged in anonymous disagreements about nothing. It baffles me me that so many "fighter pilots" hang out on this site. What exactly is "the dark side of aviation" ? Some of you guys need to take trip away from the mirror.

 

[Kuma]

Well

I think we all spend time on this site to keep up to date with various portions of the aviation world that interest us. My guess is that a squadron CO would frequent a section marked "military". That makes sense to me anyway.

There are plenty on here who talk as if they know...but it is fairly evident that they do not. I simply don't read their posts.

I think the dark side of aviation is how many of us die while doing something we enjoy.

Why are you on this forum?

 

[milky]

One would think that a retired CO and distinguished vet wouldn't spend so much time on flight info engaged in anonymous disagreements about nothing. It baffles me me that so many "fighter pilots" hang out on this site. What exactly is "the dark side of aviation" ? Some of you guys need to take trip away from the mirror.

I guess if you're going to throw out flame bait like that, I am forced to bite. We hang out here because we like to know when the good jobs become available so that we can step in front of all the aspiring civilian guys to gobble them up. Is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[SUNDOWN]

I think we all spend time on this site to keep up to date with various portions of the aviation world that interest us. My guess is that a squadron CO would frequent a section marked "military". That makes sense to me anyway.

There are plenty on here who talk as if they know...but it is fairly evident that they do not. I simply don't read their posts.

I think the dark side of aviation is how many of us die while doing something we enjoy.

Why are you on this forum?

Fair enough question. I am on this forum for a good laugh. As you can see I seldom post. Are Mil pilots under the impression that only they loose friends to "the dark side of aviation" ? Honestly, the chest puffing by a few of the guys on here is pretty comical. A squadron CO on fight info to keep up with the Military aviation world....interesting.

 

[SUNDOWN]

I guess if you're going to throw out flame bait like that, I am forced to bite. We hang out here because we like to know when the good jobs become available so that we can step in front of all the aspiring civilian guys to gobble them up. Is that what you wanted to hear?

Milky, and this is an honest question, are you really a pilot in any venue? Your posts suggest otherwise. A piece of advice, If it is on this board (job notice) you're at least a week late.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dude you've got issues. There was zero chest thumping, you've just got self confindence issues.

You fly a tactical jet in the AM and then need to get on FI later to "prove" yourself...

I cited not ONE incident in my post, merely situations the jet has been put in...

and you tried to pass off cowboy stunts where pilots killed themselves, others and destroyed property as something "we don't understand" or the "dark side of aviation"

all for the sole purpose of reiterating milky's post that an uncontained engine failure is pure uneducated speculation... which if you remember is what started this entire thread. Guys that know NOTHING, citing media reports and rumor, second guessing the guy in the seat.

When a jet destroys a house and family we get to ask questions... there is a right way and wrong way to ask...

It's unprofessional and infuriating. That's it.

Control your emotions...

FI is not a professional forum... how can some dude you don't know behind a moniker screen name be professional... how can you hold them to professionalism....

 

[milky]

Milky, and this is an honest question, are you really a pilot in any venue? Your posts suggest otherwise. A piece of advice, If it is on this board (job notice) you're at least a week late.

If you read only this thread, you would know exactly what I do for a living. If you read my previous posts in multiple threads, you would know, also.

You obviously missed the baiting purpose of my post that was in direct response to an idiotic baiting post. I didn't even know there were job notice postings on FI. I just read the forums.

 

[SIG600]

When a jet destroys a house and family we get to ask questions... there is a right way and wrong way to ask...

Again, brings us back to the beginning. Ask all you want, you don't have a RIGHT to know. Don't second guess the guy in the seat either, you wouldn't want people doing it to you or your friends.

 

[SUNDOWN]

If you read only this thread, you would know exactly what I do for a living. If you read my previous posts in multiple threads, you would know, also.

You obviously missed the baiting purpose of my post that was in direct response to an idiotic baiting post. I didn't even know there were job notice postings on FI. I just read the forums.

Milky, I hold nothing against you personally or anyone else on this board. The only reason I usually end up here is for a laugh, and then only when the kids and wife are out or asleep. Best wishes, Fly safe.

 

[Kuma]

Fair enough question. I am on this forum for a good laugh. As you can see I seldom post. Are Mil pilots under the impression that only they loose friends to "the dark side of aviation" ? Honestly, the chest puffing by a few of the guys on here is pretty comical. A squadron CO on fight info to keep up with the Military aviation world....interesting.

With the term "us" I meant pilots. Not mil pilots, not civ pilots, not foreign pilots, but all pilots. So, I know we all lose friends to the dark side of this profession we all love.

One thing beaks me though: you come to a thread about a mishap with fatalities "for a good laugh". Is that what you really meant to say?

For Rez and everyone else...one thing the military stresses within it's pilot force is that we don't speculate on the cause of the crash. We have a safety investigation which is considered "privileged". This investigation is not a legal inquiry, it simply takes all of the potential causes and tries to identify ways we can prevent a similar mishap in the future. This information is released to those who can learn from it (If the problem was F-18 specific, only the F-18 community would be briefed. If the problem is fighter specific, only fighter pilots would be briefed, or if it is basic pilot specific all pilots would be briefed, etc). This is what the military refers to as a "need to know" or "privilege".

We also have a mishap investigation which will legally penalize people for being incompetent, companies for not following proper manufacturing processes, or anyone else for not following proper protocol. (The results of this board is released to everyone)

Time and again, we have found that the initial public "reason" for the mishap is not what happened at all. So, in SIG's defense, lets wait until the mishap boards release their data before we speculate what might have happened.

 

[SUNDOWN]

With the term "us" I meant pilots. Not mil pilots, not civ pilots, not foreign pilots, but all pilots. So, I know we all lose friends to the dark side of this profession we all love.

One thing beaks me though: you come to a thread about a mishap with fatalities "for a good laugh". Is that what you really meant to say?

For Rez and everyone else...one thing the military stresses within it's pilot force is that we don't speculate on the cause of the crash. We have a safety investigation which is considered "privileged". This investigation is not a legal inquiry, it simply takes all of the potential causes and tries to identify ways we can prevent a similar mishap in the future. This information is released to those who can learn from it (If the problem was F-18 specific, only the F-18 community would be briefed. If the problem is fighter specific, only fighter pilots would be briefed, or if it is basic pilot specific all pilots would be briefed, etc). This is what the military refers to as a "need to know" or "privilege".

We also have a mishap investigation which will legally penalize people for being incompetent, companies for not following proper manufacturing processes, or anyone else for not following proper protocol. (The results of this board is released to everyone)

Time and again, we have found that the initial public "reason" for the mishap is not what happened at all. So, in SIG's defense, lets wait until the mishap boards release their data before we speculate what might have happened.

I come to this forum for a good laugh....not this thread. It is unfortunate that you construed my post this way. As a father, husband and pilot I cannot imagine what these poor people are going through and my prayers and thoughts go out to all. This thread started downhill long before I arrived.

 

[ableone]

BUMP

Before it drops off the page.

When is the preliminary report due?

 

[SIG600]

When it's done (and right).

 

[Andy Neill]

Update: This from MSNBC this afternoon--------
SAN DIEGO - The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four members of a Korean family was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.

Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.

Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose, the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.

That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.

Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash.

Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.

Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.

Before the crash, the pilot ejected safely.

Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home — Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.

The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.

 

[ableone]

While some reports indicate that the airplane was closer to MCAS Mirimar, most indicate that he launched from a carrier operating southwest of Coronado.

The first engine failed due to an oil leak and the second due to fuel starvation. The fuel starvation occurred because of a problem moving fuel around. Whether this was a mechanical failure, a pilot error or a combination of the two has not been made clear.

The local congressional leaders were briefed by the military and were told the accident was "absolutely" preventable.

Thirteen officers and men have been disciplined as a result of the crash.

No final decision has been made about whether or not the pilot will face disciplinary action though one member of the congressional delegation remarked that he was doubtful the pilot would again fly for the Marines.

 

[KigAir]

Who has final authority of a military aircraft while it's in the air? The pilot or people on the ground?

 

[JungleJett]

Who has final authority of a military aircraft while it's in the air? The pilot or people on the ground?

The pilot...but any action he or she takes, you must be able to show you used sound judgment. If not, then you must be accountable for your actions.

As a pilot, you should use every resource available to you, many of those are outside the cockpit.

I was not in the seat of that airplane...but the investigation is revealing.

 

[okcplt]

Update: This from MSNBC this afternoon--------
SAN DIEGO - The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four members of a Korean family was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.

Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.

Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose, the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.

That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.

Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash.

Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.

Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.

Before the crash, the pilot ejected safely.

Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home — Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.

The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.

One word: GROUNDED.

When do the criminal proceedings start?

 

[Fearless Tower]

The details of the Marine Corps briefing were posted in the SD Tribune yesterday....rather revealing.

Apparently when the pilot first checked in to Socal Approach, he reported that he had an engine failure and possible problems with his other engine which led to the approach controller twice offering the straight in approach for 36 at NZY (he was approaching from 50 nm Southwest of San Diego).....he chose to continue to Mirimar, but apparently had the presence of mind to request the equipment at Mirimar???

A couple of other interesting notes that I'd be interested in hearing from any F-18 guys or other fighter jet guys: When the plane hit the house, it apparently had the gear down.....what operates the gear in the Hornet? Is it an eledctro-hydraulic pump, or a hydraulic pump off an engine accessory drive? If it was electrical, I would think you would want to bring the gear up as soon as the second engine failed.....would have made all the difference in that plane landing in the canyon just beyond the house.

Also, according the the briefing, he apparently made a left 270 degree turn over La Jolla to line up with rwy 6 because he didn't want to turn into the dead engine......with the engines so close together, does turning toward a dead engine really matter that much, particularly with thrust reduced during a descent?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Interested in SIG600 comments...............

 

[bagasticks]

The details of the Marine Corps briefing were posted in the SD Tribune yesterday....rather revealing.

Apparently when the pilot first checked in to Socal Approach, he reported that he had an engine failure and possible problems with his other engine which led to the approach controller twice offering the straight in approach for 36 at NZY (he was approaching from 50 nm Southwest of San Diego).....he chose to continue to Mirimar, but apparently had the presence of mind to request the equipment at Mirimar???

A couple of other interesting notes that I'd be interested in hearing from any F-18 guys or other fighter jet guys: When the plane hit the house, it apparently had the gear down.....what operates the gear in the Hornet? Is it an eledctro-hydraulic pump, or a hydraulic pump off an engine accessory drive? If it was electrical, I would think you would want to bring the gear up as soon as the second engine failed.....would have made all the difference in that plane landing in the canyon just beyond the house.

Also, according the the briefing, he apparently made a left 270 degree turn over La Jolla to line up with rwy 6 because he didn't want to turn into the dead engine......with the engines so close together, does turning toward a dead engine really matter that much, particularly with thrust reduced during a descent?

recalling my hornet maintenance days. . the gear is operated hydraulically unless you lose hyd 2b (right motor) in which case you rotate the gear handle 90 degrees to blow it down via accumulator (apu accumulator i think) so putting them back up would not have been practical assuming the right motor was tits up. . Im not questioning the PIC's actions though, just sharing some systems knowledge. .

one of you hornet clowns correct me if im wrong. .

 

[JungleJett]

Interested in SIG600 comments...............

Shouldn't you be mowing Praters grass and washing his car....