F18 Down?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Somehow, the spirit of forgiveness is growing.

The Sunflower by Wiesenthal

 

[milky]

What is your aviation background?

I would be willing to be that next time that young Marine finds himself in a jet that is not working right, this incident will pop up in his head...if ever so briefly. I am not questioning whether he did the right thing or not but flying skills and judgment is based on past experience and training. This experience will most likely effect his judgment IF he finds himself in a similar situation. Statistics and studies prove it. The man is human and has suffered a traumatic event and one that he will remember for the rest of his life. It WILL be there when and if. This is in no way an indictment on his abilities as a pilot, Marine, or a human being. He is not super human...this will stick with him. I am sure he will have the mental and emotional fortitude to strap a jet back on and be a wonderful asset to the community.

The same factors effect ground forces to include the most elite of special operations forces. It is the sum of their experiences both good and bad that help guide their actions when bullets start flying.

Let me suggest a good book called "On Combat" by Dave Grossman. http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psychology-Physiology-Deadly-Conflict/dp/0964920514

There are no pictures in it...just so you know.

Every experience you have flying should affect future behavior or else you are not learning from your experience. We don't know how this played out, so speculation as to how it would/should affect him is a futile effort at best.

I fly the same jets that crashed. Until a few months ago, I was in instructor for a squadron exactly like the one of which he belonged. I have investigated crashes like this. I have combat experience. We don't know anything about what happened here. Those of us that have the right access will know in approximately 30 days. Beyond that, it'll be whatever they tell the media.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

F-14 crash after take off from KBNA, 3 on the ground killed.

This was serious pilot error. The pilots family was at the airport and he was showing off.

In other words it was negligence and a doesn't help the arguement of houses should not be near airports.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Pilot error is normally to blame in about 80% of all accidents.

Whatever. Heavy tanker going to the ship. Pilot thought it would be sh!t hot and to do a low transition and then wrapped it up very low, high g, high AOB turn. Departed (stalled) and they ejected low and inverted and never even got seat-man sep. when they hit the ground. Jet then hit the lady driving down the road and killed her too. Just like the BNA F-14, 100% pilot error and 100% avoidable. Pretty sad.

 

[bagasticks]

This was serious pilot error. The pilots family was at the airport and he was showing off.

In other words it was negligence and a doesn't help the arguement of houses should not be near airports.

not to mention it was the second tom kitty that individual had donated back to the tax payer. .

 

[AEROSQUADRON69]

Awww, the local townhall meetings here are nuts.
Marines spokesperson...These jets can safely fly on one engine....Homeowner, apparently NOT! Without details, that some serious stuff went wrong.
Another person...How come they didn't divert him to another airport away from homes. No thought process at all. They need some aviation reps or something.
Last but not least! My children cry every time they say a plane overhead now. Possible and sad if true.

 

[lowtimedriver]

Prayers go to the pilot and those who lost family members. Any guesses why the pilot didn't divert to North Island as opposed to Miramar? Only thing I can think is that he may have been closer to Miramar than North Island when he lost his first engine...

 

[Fearless Tower]

He could have just as easily taken out a house on Coranado or even the Del itself going into NZY.

The bottom line is, the F-18 is a freaking multi-engine airplane. If a 737 enroute to LAX loses an engine, we don't divert the bloody thing to Mojave or Edwards AFB, so a decision to return the aircraft to its home field after losing one of 2 engines over the ocean doesn't seem like a horrible violation of ORM. Good grief, how on earth did we ever survive before the hornet when we were flying A-4s and A-7s?

 

[ableone]

The difference is that an F-18's engines are adjacent to each other and an uncontained failure will probably damage the other engine while this failure mode is unlikely in a 737.

We will have to wait for the investigation results. I just hope it is not something stupid like fuel exhaustion.

 

[SIG600]

The difference is that an F-18's engines are adjacent to each other and an uncontained failure will probably damage the other engine while this failure mode is unlikely in a 737.

We will have to wait for the investigation results. I just hope it is not something stupid like fuel exhaustion.

Dude, shut up and stop speculating. You know nothing of the Hornet, it's systems, internal structure, etc.

30 days from the accident the SIR will be released, until then everything else is the opinions of the uneducated.

 

[PUCKFA18]

The difference is that an F-18's engines are adjacent to each other and an uncontained failure will probably damage the other engine while this failure mode is unlikely in a 737.

We will have to wait for the investigation results. I just hope it is not something stupid like fuel exhaustion.

OMG.......STFU.....uneducated DW!!!

Just freaking wait 30 days!!!!!!!!

 

[CrewDawg]

Another person...How come they didn't divert him to another airport away from homes.

Why don't you live away from airports? The ignorance of the general public never ceases to amaze me.

* Not you AERO, just these dumba$$es in general.

 

[ableone]

OMG.......STFU.....uneducated DW!!!

Just freaking wait 30 days!!!!!!!!

Well educate me then smartass. Does the -18 have a impenetrable kevlar belt between the engines and accessory bays?

 

[milky]

Well educate me then smartass. Does the -18 have a impenetrable kevlar belt between the engines and accessory bays?

Do you know enough about the design of the hornet to even ask an intelligent question about it? Obviously not. There are two engines. There is no recorded incident of a chunk failure causing one engine to destroy the other engine. I have seen landing gear jammed into both intakes and the jet still make it to land. The jet was designed to got in to battle and sustain damage. But, fail to connect the oil line properly to the engine, and just like any jet, it will stop working pretty quickly.

 

[milky]

We will have to wait for the investigation results. I just hope it is not something stupid like fuel exhaustion.

You know, looking back at your original post, I am sorry I even dignified you with a response. You truly are an idiot. You have no idea the mission and training that happens right off the coast. I have nearly had to deal with fuel exhaustion more than once just off the coast of California. There is a HUGE difference between an airline running out of gas and a tactical jet running out of gas. If you knew all the situations we put ourselves into each day that you would consider a serious emergency, you'd keep your stupid mouth shut until you have some clue as to what happened.

 

[JungleJett]

Hey Milky...who lit the string on your tampon?

Relax dude...

 

[LearLove]

Charlotte, NC news (2/29/08) reporting an AV-8B down at Cherry Point.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Charlotte, NC news (2/29/08) reporting an AV-8B down at Cherry Point.

February? They are just now getting around to reporting it because they were busy getting Obama elected........:laugh:

 

[milky]

Hey Milky...who lit the string on your tampon?

Relax dude...

It pisses me off that a guy was risking his life landing on a carrier at night, and this idiot makes stupid remarks.

 

[JungleJett]

It pisses me off that a guy was risking his life landing on a carrier at night, and this idiot makes stupid remarks.

Why give him the power to piss you off?

 

[JungleJett]

February? They are just now getting around to reporting it because they were busy getting Obama elected........:laugh:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28423765/


Still funny?


RIP....

 

[CatfishVT9]

You're an idiot. Since when does finding the humor in a keystroke error mean that I think a fatality is funny?

 

[JungleJett]

edited...took the high road.

 

[ableone]

Do you know enough about the design of the hornet to even ask an intelligent question about it? Obviously not. There are two engines. There is no recorded incident of a chunk failure causing one engine to destroy the other engine.

Never heard of a "chunk" failure but I will assume that you are talking about an uncontained compressor or turbine failure. Your never "hearing" about it is hardly evidence that the F-18 is completely damage tolerant.

I have seen landing gear jammed into both intakes and the jet still make it to land. The jet was designed to got in to battle and sustain damage. But, fail to connect the oil line properly to the engine, and just like any jet, it will stop working pretty quickly.

Damaged/distorted intakes are hardly the same as damage to the engine core. Most jets would be able to function with their inlets distorted. (Since the F-18 utilizes a bleed air system instead of variable geometry ramps to enable supersonic operations I would expect that it would have more capability to handle inlet distortions.)

I asked specific questions and you responded with sweeping generalizations about my lack of knowledge but so far have shed no light on the issue.

 

[ableone]

You know, looking back at your original post, I am sorry I even dignified you with a response. You truly are an idiot. You have no idea the mission and training that happens right off the coast. I have nearly had to deal with fuel exhaustion more than once just off the coast of California. There is a HUGE difference between an airline running out of gas and a tactical jet running out of gas. If you knew all the situations we put ourselves into each day that you would consider a serious emergency, you'd keep your stupid mouth shut until you have some clue as to what happened.

Running out of fuel when there are troops engaged on the ground is one thing, running out of fuel on a training mission is quite another. Further, running out of fuel and then flying over a populated area is still another thing.

You are the one jumping to conclusions, I merely stated that I hoped it was not fuel exhaustion. Dual engine failures are improbable events and are usually caused by a common cause, i.e. fuel exhaustion, fuel contamination, tank vent failure etc.

No go ahead and call me more names as this seems to be your preferred method of communication.

I hope the majority of tacair pilots are a little more mature than you appear to be.

 

[SIG600]

edited... I'll just keep my mouth shut

Wise decisions. Catfish is a retired CO, and distinguished vet. I'd be willing to bet he's seen the dark side of aviation on a personal basis more times than you.


Ableone, Milky makes some very good points... you have NO idea the situations we put ourselves in on a daily basis. Life around the boat in a jet that has no gas to begin with is something you can't even fathom. I routinely (like this morning) return from the warning area with about 20 minutes of gas (2,000 #'s) left. Why? Because we have to squeeze every amount of training out possible, there's an inherent level of risk involved that we accept, that you would consider a serious emergency. To have someone that knows absolutely ZERO about tactical aviation start spouting off at the mouth second guessing a pilots decisions based on speculation and hearsay pisses off not only him but ALL of us. As far as an uncontained engine failure taking out the other, I've NEVER heard of it happening in the Hornet. This jet has taken direct surface to air fire, surface to air missiles, blown up engines, lost entire control surfaces, and made it home time and again. A wild compressor section taking a trip is MINOR.

And WTF are you talking about bleed air and sonic inlet flow? Playing too many video games?

 

[CatfishVT9]

Thanks Sig,

you're right. Too many times and too many memorials. All Great Americans. I can't stand to hear the Navy Hymn anymore.

 

[JungleJett]

Never mind......

 

[ableone]

Ableone, Milky makes some very good points... you have NO idea the situations we put ourselves in on a daily basis. Life around the boat in a jet that has no gas to begin with is something you can't even fathom. I routinely (like this morning) return from the warning area with about 20 minutes of gas (2,000 #'s) left.

That does not strike me as particularly risky. If 20 minutes is the normal reserve than so be it. As far as being able to fathom it, those of us who have been around long enough to have started out in straight jets know well what it is like to run low on fuel.

Why? Because we have to squeeze every amount of training out possible, there's an inherent level of risk involved that we accept, that you would consider a serious emergency. To have someone that knows absolutely ZERO about tactical aviation start spouting off at the mouth second guessing a pilots decisions based on speculation and hearsay pisses off not only him but ALL of us.

If you re-read my original post you will see that I was doing no such thing. I was simply pointing out that in a 737 and unconfined failure would most likely cause no damage to the other engine, while this scenario is not necessarily the same in a pod mounted twin.

As far as an uncontained engine failure taking out the other, I've NEVER heard of it happening in the Hornet.

You saying that you have never heard of it happening is not at all the same as saying you are aware of a specific feature on the F-18 that protects one engine from the other.

This jet has taken direct surface to air fire, surface to air missiles, blown up engines, lost entire control surfaces, and made it home time and again. A wild compressor section taking a trip is MINOR.

And WTF are you talking about bleed air and sonic inlet flow? Playing too many video games?

The last time I checked the F-18 did not have air inlet deflection ramps to maintain subsonic inlet flow. Since you are the expert why don't you tell us how the F-18 maintains subsonic flow to the engines.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wise decisions. Catfish is a retired CO, and distinguished vet. I'd be willing to bet he's seen the dark side of aviation on a personal basis more times than you.


Ableone, Milky makes some very good points... you have NO idea the situations we put ourselves in on a daily basis. Life around the boat in a jet that has no gas to begin with is something you can't even fathom. I routinely (like this morning) return from the warning area with about 20 minutes of gas (2,000 #'s) left. Why? Because we have to squeeze every amount of training out possible, there's an inherent level of risk involved that we accept, that you would consider a serious emergency. To have someone that knows absolutely ZERO about tactical aviation start spouting off at the mouth second guessing a pilots decisions based on speculation and hearsay pisses off not only him but ALL of us. As far as an uncontained engine failure taking out the other, I've NEVER heard of it happening in the Hornet. This jet has taken direct surface to air fire, surface to air missiles, blown up engines, lost entire control surfaces, and made it home time and again. A wild compressor section taking a trip is MINOR.

And WTF are you talking about bleed air and sonic inlet flow? Playing too many video games?

So you fly a tactical jet this AM, and that is not enough, so you come on FI, to beat your chest and roar bravado....??

I flew with an F-14 guy earlier this year. A true gent. I had to ask to get info out of him. If he had an ego he left it Oceana and retired it with the jet...

Fact is, MIL pilots are humans and make mistakes.. maybe this guy did, maybe he didn't...

But as we've seen earlier, you've got a 'we can do no wrong attitude'. You tried to pass off this attitude with the Viper/CIV interception thread and in this thread with the bravado pilots that were showing off and killed themselves, others and wasted a good jet..

You aren't going to take it from me, but maybe one the MIL guys can give a you check up from the neck up....