F-18F Question

[SIG600]

I've often thought that we should practice combined arms more often, in the sense that a tremendous fighting flight would consist of 2-4 F-15's paired with 2-4 F-16's. Use the F-15 strengths - excellent radar discipline, pre-merge sorting, long range death. At the merge, the F-16's would mop up with point and shoot heaters. Then everyone haul a$$ and do it again the next day.

That was not a new concept. We were tossing it out in the '80's, but the brass never bit on it. I still think it makes sense.

Load up 16's with -9X, follow the Eagles to the merge. Not a bad idea.

 

[Gorilla]

On the A-37 vs F-16 thing - One set of parameters often cited for fighter performance was turn rate, and turn radius. Turn rate is a function of lift. We soon discovered that a Cessna, or pretty much any prop AC, especially an acro bird, has a sustained turn rate and radius that on paper looks like flying death. Add other parameters like thrust to weight, ceiling, wing loading - then you have AC like the U2, which again on paper looks like the greatest fighter of all time.

A good fighter is a total packge. Engines, payload, range, wing loading, avionics, radar, weapons load, and the guy flying it. Everything is a compromise. Improve one function, only at the expense of another.

As for eXAF "Burgers and Grape" quote - I've heard it many times, but it only goes so far. The greatest stick of all time cannot beat an RTU student if the equipment is grossly mismatched. An example... I was with a group of vastly experienced air-air Holloman AT-38B IP's when the call came from Luke to support their F-16 RTU, mainly because they couldn't find anybody better. We were their last choice for DACT.

Noob F-16's pounded us mercilessly despite every trick, every subtle maneuver we could come up with. It was very frustrating for us, and probably boring for the Luke IP's. So Yeager in his P-51 would be instantly smoked by the lowliest student in a modern fighter.

 

[SIG600]

Noob F-16's pounded us mercilessly despite every trick, every subtle maneuver we could come up with. It was very frustrating for us, and probably boring for the Luke IP's. So Yeager in his P-51 would be instantly smoked by the lowliest student in a modern fighter.

I agree to an extent. Experience counts for a lot... especially BFM. A 20 hour/year SU-27 is gonna be a supersonic cheerleader in a 1V1 engagement. Anything more complex than that and he's probably gonna have a full on 5 alarm helmet fire. Plus I would bet a pay check he's gonna go level across the horizon post merge. On paper a Hornet should crush an F-5, but I've been in the hud of one a few times. The guy at the stick I think is the most important factor.

Gorilla to add to what you were saying about numbers on paper, and the actual package. You should read John Boyd's bio. Great book and goes into detail on his development of EM, and breaking the higher/faster/farther mindset.

 

[Gorilla]

Gorilla to add to what you were saying about numbers on paper, and the actual package. You should read John Boyd's bio. Great book and goes into detail on his development of EM, and breaking the higher/faster/farther mindset.

I did read the book; I agree, it's greatness. Anyone interested in military fighters should read it, you won't be sorry: http://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Changed-War/dp/0316881465

After reading it, I was in awe of this man. One of the deepest military thinkers of this century, and probably the least known.

 

[SIG600]

Ya, the guy was brilliant.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Noob F-16's pounded us mercilessly despite every trick, every subtle maneuver we could come up with. It was very frustrating for us, and probably boring for the Luke IP's.

Interesting. I just finished a tour as a Smurf IP and had quite the opposite experience in flying DACT vs both Vipers and Eagles.

Although some of the time we were called dead well prior to getting WVR, an equal amount of time we were able to get to the merge untargeted and unobserved. The small RCS and size of the Smurf meant that we were able to get boresight heat shots and gun tracks many a time.

My "best" fight was during a WIC support deployment on a F-15C tac intercept ride. My 2-ship of Smurfs was simulating MiG-21s but shooting Archers. We performed a "tactical" notch/press at the standard range, and I ended up merging high aspect with the WIC IP. We passed inside 1000' and I could clearly see his nugget looking out the opposite side of the canopy. Even in the mighty T-38 with my 6G / 4500' turn, I was able to call a kill on the IP.

Of course, on the other 4 engagements we died gloriously well before the merge like the pinko communist bastards we were.

 

[SIG600]

It's frustrating finding an F-5 at the merge... I can't imagine trying to see a T-38.

 

[Gorilla]

Interesting. I just finished a tour as a Smurf IP and had quite the opposite experience in flying DACT vs both Vipers and Eagles.

I forgot to mention that our Luke RTU support was pure perch setups, both offensive and defensive, nothing outside of 6,000'. Doing proper 4v4, we had similar success, half due to the incredibly good camo and small size of the Smurf Jet, and half being experience and treachery by the Smurf pilots.

Remind me sometime to take a pic of my "Smurf Driver" patch. It was a clone of the stock F-15 Eagle Driver patch, except it had a smurf head. Best patch seen to date.

 

[jetblast18]

Wing fence

In the latest issue of COMBAT AIRCRAFT there are photos of the EA-18 Growler and there appears to be a wing fence located on the top of each wing. I have yet to see any regular Super Hornets with them. Are these unique to the Growler or will they be included on all Super Hornets at some point?

 

[Bjammin]

I did some testing on the EA-18G and I believe the ALQ-99 jamming pods they have had to upload effect the aerodynamics a little so the fence was nessesary.
The ALQ-99 pods were never meant to be on there but until the replacement pod is out of development it's the only jamming pod available.

Very awesome jet.

 

[BiffF15]

Good discussion. Nose position vs energy.

Flankers - They may have a kick-a$$ platform, but if they don't train on it, if they're getting 40 hours annually, then they may as well be flying MiG-15's. However, I'm assuming that there are flankers exported to countries that can afford the training. It demands respect.

Turning/burning: One thing training never prepares you for... having half your flight blow up pre-merge. That was what the F-15 excelled at, and still does, while maintaining respectable turning powers. In Gulf war 1, 98% of the AA kills were high-speed, hit and run. There was only one sustained fight that I'm aware of, and that was a 58th TFS Gorilla pilot who I know driving a MiG-29 into the dirt in a Lufberry-ish turning fight. Everything else was 600 KIAS+ shots, haul a$$, and the majority were AIM-7's, not AIM-9's.

I've often thought that we should practice combined arms more often, in the sense that a tremendous fighting flight would consist of 2-4 F-15's paired with 2-4 F-16's. Use the F-15 strengths - excellent radar discipline, pre-merge sorting, long range death. At the merge, the F-16's would mop up with point and shoot heaters. Then everyone haul a$$ and do it again the next day.

That was not a new concept. We were tossing it out in the '80's, but the brass never bit on it. I still think it makes sense.

Gorilla we are cleared hot to do Mixed Force Fighter Ops (MFFO) these days and it's written into 3-1. We have done some limited stuff in my Guard unit with the SCANG guys (everyone up on data link). An Eagle with APG-63V0 or V1 paired up with a Block 50/52 Viper would be a killing team. Add the Helmet & 9x to the mix creates even more effective WVR cleaning up.
However, the APG-63V2 guys are in a league of their own. That has to be the most impressive radar tape I've seen. And the V3 is right around the corner.
I also agree that Rico's timing has been world class.

 

[SIG600]

Re: what Biff said... the guys I've talked to that have used the new AESA radar's are all floored by the capabilities. Can't wait to see it perform coupled with HMC and -120D.

 

[BiffF15]

Sig BTW the best Hornet fights I've had is with the A+. The last flight control revision was impressive (didn't realize there was so much more to be had). I did get a CF-18B ride while stationed at Eglin and was impressed with the flight controls.

 

[The_Russian]

Fear the R-73!!!!!!!!

 

[bssthound]

As always, jumping in way late!!

technically the Super is a BIGGER dumb grey animal. Elephant is to hard to say in a ball call though.

What about manatee? Or, as it's commonly known, Sea Cow? It's easy to say and the word "sea" denotes its being a Navy Jet.

Just a biased former Rhino guy's $.02!!

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

I agree, imagination is lacking, and originality is non-existant...

Don't name it anything, and pilots will come up with something short and to the point (because we're lazy), guaranteed!

The E/F model looks better, I think it's due to square intakes, bigger LEX or strake, and just that it's...bigger!

The name is right there looking us right in the face, just add a letter...The F/A-18 E/F (Elf). Perfect for the holidays.

 

[mzaharis]

Lockheed has been trying to name something Lightning II since the YF-22, the AF chose another name for the 22 and called it the Raptor, so Lockheed tried again and suceeded.

I used to work on the F-119 at Pratt back in 89-91, when the Lightning II moniker was still being considered for the YF-22, and someone printed out some F-119 t-shirts that said, "F-119 - The Thunder Behind the Lightning II". I think I still have one laying about.

 

[SIG600]

Sig BTW the best Hornet fights I've had is with the A+. The last flight control revision was impressive (didn't realize there was so much more to be had). I did get a CF-18B ride while stationed at Eglin and was impressed with the flight controls.

Ya those things are BFM monsters. Their lighter than most fleet Hornets because they don't have a lot of the boxes, plus they have the big motors.

The software revisions are always amazing. I'm constantly impressed at what the 50 lb brains come up with... especially when you think how old the computers are. The jet has def evolved a lot over the years.

 

[BiffF15]

I didn't realize that the A+'s had the bigger EPE motor. That would explain why it was a tough fight that ended neutral at the floor both times. I honestly can't remember configurations however we might get more of the same here shortly (we are in our BFM phase again). We fly F15A's with the bigger engine and are sort of an anomaly. It's quite the BFM monster and able to hang with most of the big engined Vipers (depending on their configuration).
I have done several BFM hops with the F model and can confirm they need more power. It wasn't a fair scrap.

 

[SIG600]

I didn't realize that the A+'s had the bigger EPE motor. That would explain why it was a tough fight that ended neutral at the floor both times. I honestly can't remember configurations however we might get more of the same here shortly (we are in our BFM phase again). We fly F15A's with the bigger engine and are sort of an anomaly. It's quite the BFM monster and able to hang with most of the big engined Vipers (depending on their configuration).
I have done several BFM hops with the F model and can confirm they need more power. It wasn't a fair scrap.

Watch which F's you fight. With 9x and Helmet... well... I won't post specifics on the internet, but you may find yourself dead about 1/4 second after the merge.