F-18F Question

[SMOOTHRIDE]

Gorilla and Exaf;

I agree, imagination is lacking, and originality is non-existant...

Don't name it anything, and pilots will come up with something short and to the point (because we're lazy), guaranteed!

The E/F model looks better, I think it's due to square intakes, bigger LEX or strake, and just that it's...bigger!

Since they're draggy, what kind of legs do they have now, better/same/worse than the older F-18s?

 

[SIG600]

Gorilla and Exaf;

I agree, imagination is lacking, and originality is non-existant...

Don't name it anything, and pilots will come up with something short and to the point (because we're lazy), guaranteed!

The E/F model looks better, I think it's due to square intakes, bigger LEX or strake, and just that it's...bigger!

Since they're draggy, what kind of legs do they have now, better/same/worse than the older F-18s?

Better legs... more efficient engines too. And more gas. Carries more stuff. About the only thing it can't do is go faster than a Chuck. Nor can the Chuck give gas (THANK GOD!). Like Rhino said, it was made to carry more with it's thicker wings and larger lex. To give you an idea, we were out FCLPing tonight, my max landing weight was with 6600 #'s of gas. Put me right at the weight limit. Thats enough gas for about 25 minutes of bouncing. I heard a Rhino show up, and called over 14K #'s of gas on their ball call. We can't even carry that much with only a single centerline, nor would you EVER be able to land with anything close to that in a Chuck.

 

[SMOOTHRIDE]

Cool-- thanks Sig, I've heard people talkin' smack I guess... saying that the E/F has same/worse legs than the C/D.

SR

 

[SIG600]

Cool-- thanks Sig, I've heard people talkin' smack I guess... saying that the E/F has same/worse legs than the C/D.

SR

Put it this way... talking to a VX guy from China Lake... he routinely (spelling?) went from China Lake to Beaufort SC, double bubble, one leg, and would be on deck with 4K #'s of gas. Going west he said you could do it if the wind was just right. Not a snow balls chance in hell of doing that with a Chuck. ALL THAT BEING SAID... Rhino's are gay.

 

[rhinodriver]

You guys better quit ganging up on me!

ALL THAT BEING SAID... Rhino's are gay.

Wow... It's getting hard to breath under this dog pile!

FWIW... 14K is way over max trap. If he was bouncing like that at the field it is sort of negative training as you will never be that heavy at the boat. Max trap is more like 9.0K depending on configuration.

 

[bagasticks]

I'm kinda patial to the A+'s

 

[SMOOTHRIDE]

Rhino or Sig;

Does a C/D hornet guy think the E/F is worse for ACM?

An F-15C guy will tell you that he wants no part of mixing it up in a dogfight while strapped into a strike eagle. I guess they consider it a pig (peeyig if you're from the south), because it's heavier. It almost sounds the same for the E/F, but it is a SUPER HORNET, so I thought I'd ask the source?

Rest of fighter guys/ aeronautical engineers:
(I was a marine engineer = ships)

When I was still in college (and very enthusiastic) I did a report on high aoa flight using the SU-27 and Mig-29 as soviet examples, and the F-16 and F-18 as US front line examples of high alpha pointy nose airplanes. Is it EXSCLUSIVELY the LEXs that provide a vortex to scrub the boundry layer on the wing and keep flow attached at high alpha? If that's right, does roll become a little squirrely at high aoa since the ailerons aren't really scrubbed by the lex flow? If you can talk a little about high alpha stuff, I never really learned much more about it (except maybe from aviation leak).

At the time, thrust vectoring was new, only the X-31 really had it. Now we have the SU-35 and the F-22! Pretty awesome to have that technology on soon to be/frontline fighters in 10 years (I was a senior in 1995)! Does that kind of airplane out there change the way you fight/think? (I would want to stay away from something like that, and shoot from far away rather than a knife fight--but what the hell do I know, I'm a P-3 guy...).

Finally, are LEXs and thrust vectoring the only contributors to high alpha? Methinks that vortex generators and vortilons could help too, just seeing if anyone out there knows about this stuff??

Thanks in advance for reading this/replying, this stuff is fascinating to me.

SR

 

[SIG600]

Having not flown the Super, from a purely numbers stand point I think the super is a better ACM platform. Bigger lex's, more thrust, plus the F's have two sets of eyes. If I'm not mistaken the Super has more alpha available to it. I think it's got a higher critical AOA.

From an Alpha stand point, the Mig 29 and Viper arn't great high AOA fighters (btw, thier EM diagrams are almost a mirror image). Their more two circle rate war fighters. Tons of thrust, and incredible sustained turn rate. The disadvantage to that is a good pilot in a Hornet can drive the fight and keep it slow using his nose authority. I've had fights with 16's go both ways. You give him more than just a few seconds to extend and add energy (and the 16 can add speed like nobody's business) and he'll either double immelman you, or take you into a rate fight that you simply CAN'T win. However if you can keep your nose pointed at him, make him honor that, and keep the fight tight and slow you can use the unlimted alpha to work him into a radius fight that HE can't win. Like Rhino said earlier, you can also use the superior nose authority of the Hornet to get the first shot more often than not. That however usually means selling the energy you have to get to that point. If the shots blown, or they can stuff it, now you've got a real energy problem.

As far as the alpha available to the Hornet, it's a combination of a lot of things. Lex, CG, the location and size of the stabilators, and flight control computers. Critical AOA is 35 degrees (beyond that you're not really flying anymore) but I've had the thing to beyond 60 degree's in a fight (you really don't wanna be here), and you still have full nose authority, and it's all in the Flight Control Computers. You push the stick and rudders telling the jet what you want, and it manipulates the controls surfaces to give you that. It's amazing doing a high alpha flight, positioning the mirrors to watch the controls and see just how wild it gets back there. Yet the jet remains stable. One of the other amazing things the Hornet can do is the pirouette logic in the computers. I can slam the stick full aft and right/left, with full corresponding rudder, and the jet will completely swap ends. Again you're selling energy to do it, but the capability is just another ace up the sleeve to get a shot opportunity.

 

[SMOOTHRIDE]

Sig;

Thanks for responding back! Sorry for these questions, but a brothers just gots to know:

Huh, that's pretty friggin awesome what the computers can do!

So the hornet is radius machine because of it's high alpha perf. and ability to use the vertical?

The viper (maybe mig-29) isn't as good a high alpha fighter, but it's a turn rate mongoose, and it can accelerate quickly if it extends to get energy back?


Where would you use a double immelman? Is that a no-kidding double immelman, or an immelman then a split s?

"I can slam the stick full aft and right/left, with full corresponding rudder, and the jet will completely swap ends." -Holy $hit! That would be a snaproll in anything else, but it's a swap ends yaw turn in a hornet? Dag!

Any thoughts on the SU-27/SU-35 (just general stuff, not trying to pry)?

best regards,
SR

 

[SIG600]

Sig;

Thanks for responding back! Sorry for these questions, but a brothers just gots to know:

Huh, that's pretty friggin awesome what the computers can do!

So the hornet is radius machine because of it's high alpha perf. and ability to use the vertical?

The viper (maybe mig-29) isn't as good a high alpha fighter, but it's a turn rate mongoose, and it can accelerate quickly if it extends to get energy back?


Where would you use a double immelman? Is that a no-kidding double immelman, or an immelman then a split s?

"I can slam the stick full aft and right/left, with full corresponding rudder, and the jet will completely swap ends." -Holy $hit! That would be a snaproll in anything else, but it's a swap ends yaw turn in a hornet? Dag!

Any thoughts on the SU-27/SU-35 (just general stuff, not trying to pry)?

best regards,
SR

Hornet can't really use the vertical in the true sense like the Viper can. And thats a no kidding double immelman to the Viper (esp the big motor version). Advantageous to gain alt when your opponent is out of energy, and can't get his nose up to pressure you.

As far as the Flanker, what I've read is pretty eye watering. The systems onboard (IRSTS, Slotback II, HMS) as well as it's ability to employ the AA-10C and AA-11... oh, and the Mach #'s it can achieve. Add to that the EW capabilities... and anyone with an internet connection has seen video's of it's manuverability. Scarey stuff.

 

[Gorilla]

As far as the Flanker, what I've read is pretty eye watering. The systems onboard (IRSTS, Slotback II, HMS) as well as it's ability to employ the AA-10C and AA-11... oh, and the Mach #'s it can achieve. Add to that the EW capabilities... and anyone with an internet connection has seen video's of it's manuverability. Scarey stuff.

Good discussion. Nose position vs energy.

Flankers - They may have a kick-a$$ platform, but if they don't train on it, if they're getting 40 hours annually, then they may as well be flying MiG-15's. However, I'm assuming that there are flankers exported to countries that can afford the training. It demands respect.

Turning/burning: One thing training never prepares you for... having half your flight blow up pre-merge. That was what the F-15 excelled at, and still does, while maintaining respectable turning powers. In Gulf war 1, 98% of the AA kills were high-speed, hit and run. There was only one sustained fight that I'm aware of, and that was a 58th TFS Gorilla pilot who I know driving a MiG-29 into the dirt in a Lufberry-ish turning fight. Everything else was 600 KIAS+ shots, haul a$$, and the majority were AIM-7's, not AIM-9's.

I've often thought that we should practice combined arms more often, in the sense that a tremendous fighting flight would consist of 2-4 F-15's paired with 2-4 F-16's. Use the F-15 strengths - excellent radar discipline, pre-merge sorting, long range death. At the merge, the F-16's would mop up with point and shoot heaters. Then everyone haul a$$ and do it again the next day.

That was not a new concept. We were tossing it out in the '80's, but the brass never bit on it. I still think it makes sense.

 

[ExAF]

"Combined Arms"

I flew red air at a few Marine WTIs at Yuma in the 80s and they were already pairing F-18s with A-4s in a similar fashion. Great concept that worked pretty well. I think one of the reasons the AF brass never bit on 15/16 blend was the logistics that would have been involved to train regularly. Also, they would have probably come up with some kind of ridiculous qualification and currency requirement in order to participate in those tactics.

 

[SMOOTHRIDE]

Hornet can't really use the vertical in the true sense like the Viper can. And thats a no kidding double immelman to the Viper (esp the big motor version). Advantageous to gain alt when your opponent is out of energy, and can't get his nose up to pressure you.

As far as the Flanker, what I've read is pretty eye watering. The systems onboard (IRSTS, Slotback II, HMS) as well as it's ability to employ the AA-10C and AA-11... oh, and the Mach #'s it can achieve. Add to that the EW capabilities... and anyone with an internet connection has seen video's of it's manuverability. Scarey stuff.

Sig;

Roger the double immelman, never heard of that before, maybe some of the really new aerobatic planes can do it: SU-29/31, extra 300, pitts-12, etc...

If the SU-37 has thrust vectoring, and HMS, doesn't that throw conventional weapons release envelopes out the window, AND any and all tactics to get behind the guy to kill him (from the bad guy point of view)?

It would make for something I would want to kill from far away (but what the hell do I know). The question is if we can kill from further away than they can kill?

Any pointy nose ACM/BFM "knowledge" I have is from Robert Shaw's "combat fighter tactics and maneuvering" from the naval institute press back in the 80s when I was a kid. Needless to say, it's dated knowledge. I wish I still had that book though, it was a classic.

--SR

 

[bagasticks]

didnt a gorilla (cherry) bust a 25 with a heater in a turning fight (short)?

 

[SIG600]

didnt a gorilla (cherry) bust a 25 with a heater in a turning fight (short)?

That would be a short fight, seeing as how the Mig-25 can't turn inside of one zip code, let alone any Cat-IV fighter.

 

[tomgoodman]

A-37

Roger the double immelman, never heard of that before, maybe some of the really new aerobatic planes can do it: SU-29/31, extra 300, pitts-12, etc...

A clean A-37 would easily do a double immelman, and almost a third one. Of course, it wasn't an air-to-air platform, and 400 kias was about the speed limit.

 

[SIG600]

A clean A-37 would easily do a double immelman, and almost a third one. Of course, it wasn't an air-to-air platform, and 400 kias was about the speed limit.

You can double imm. a lot of things... having tactical airspeed at the top is another argument. I wouldn't compare an A(T)-37's capability to that of a Viper.

 

[ExAF]

Tactical is Relative

You can double imm. a lot of things... having tactical airspeed at the top is another argument. I wouldn't compare an A(T)-37's capability to that of a Viper.

True, but after a double immelmann in an A-37 you could still have tactical speed at the top. Of course tactical speed was as low as 230KIAS for an A-37. Those J-85s make it a totally different animal than a T-37, so don't compare the T-37s capability to the A-37[A(T)-37]. I could easily hamfist a double immelmann in a viper and NOT have tactical airspeed at the top. "Hamburger in any wrapper is still hamburger." Or "A grape is a grape no matter what it flies."

 

[SIG600]

"Hamburger in any wrapper is still hamburger." Or "A grape is a grape no matter what it flies."

Two of the strangest quotes I think I've ever heard.

 

[ExAF]

Maybe before your time

Two of the strangest quotes I think I've ever heard.

Passed on from some Viet Nam era fighter pilots and older FWS grads/instructors.