Expressjet Globalized PBS?

[rjacobs]

The biggest problem I see with all of these arguments that have cropped up lately is that they have come from leaks from executive session's. The point of executive sessions is to be able to throw ideas out that may be WAY off the wall and discuss them. Maybe you learn something new and develop some new strategies, maybe you decide after the discussion that you in no way want to go where the original idea was going. That is the purpose of executive session and when the confidentiality of executive sessions is protected, they work really well. If the confidentiality of them is not protected(as it was not) then the talking breaks down completely because neither side trusts the other(which has now happened).

Our(XJT) MEC has said since the beginning of this thing that they were willing to look at everything and anything and throw ideas around to attempt to get us the best of everything. Our MEC has been looking at PBS for a while with open dialog to our pilot group. They threw the discussion out there in executive session, and the ASA MEC leaked that we were now trying to push PBS.

I have talked to my rep and he said we are in no way pushing PBS, but doing exactly what was asked of them which is to explore everything and lay it out to us pilots without trying to deceive us. I believe it is the ASA MEC's intention to deceive their pilot group by playing these stupid childish games.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Now, all of a sudden the XJET guys wanna discuss PBS.

You are the morons that keep asking about this new system. If you don't care about this other PBS system then stop talking about it. You are the idiots that voted PBS in for your company not us. So first you want us to research all the PBS systems and learn about them and now when our scheduling committee actually does what you want you cry about it.

I for one have no desire for PBS but I would love to know what you actually know about this SmartPref system. I am sure it is slim to nothing. About as much as you know about our line bidding system.

Well I have to go, time to go pick up more Red Flag pay. I'm sure you guys have that to don't you? Or maybe you are staffed so well they don't offer that to you. Are you guys still hiring and upgrading? Our line bidding system has priced us out of the market so that must be why we are still hiring and upgrading lots of people.

Hey you enjoy that PBS system you have.

 

[cybourg10]

For crying out loud!!!! Really???

It has been discussed, ad nauseum.......read up!

All you say is that because it is globalized it doesn't honor seniority, that is like saying because it is PBS it does not give you max vacation. Who have you talked to about smartpref?

If your seniority can hold a pairing you will get it. The best part is smartpref shows you in real time what you can and can't hold, sounds pretty seniority based to me. It doesn't take days and tons of man hours and a coin flip to come up with a solution like flightline. It you can hold it, it is yours. If your preferences are vague it might move a few trips around to avoid putting senior people on reserve and giving lines to junior pilots. Again, let us test it out for awhile and learn about it. It can do some cool things faster and more efficient than flightline. Just be humble and admit you don't know as much as you think you do.

 

[aircombat]

BINGO!!! ASA side more senior, makes sense to me. And now another long thread on this!

That would only matter if this merger goes date of hire. I guess there is a first time for everything.

 

[duc driver]

This is true. I didn't think it could get any uglier between the two sides but it has. The 2 sides had to stay in separate hotels last week in Houston to prevent fights from breaking out. The XJT MEC is pushing PBS without telling their pilots. The ASA MEC is now considering a globalized PBS system to appease a hostile and juvenile XJT MEC. This is all being done under a veil of secrecy.

Regarding a financial connection, there is one between certain XJT pilots and Smartpref. Hmmm.

I was at the Sheraton all last week for training and for 3 nights in a row I sat outside drinking beer with both MECs. Who ever told you this was lying to your face.

 

[777forever]

I was at the Sheraton all last week for training and for 3 nights in a row I sat outside drinking beer with both MECs. Who ever told you this was lying to your face.

Exactly, the rumors are getting out of control.

 

[Freebrd]

But 777 rumors are fun!

 

[ASADriver]

XJET MEC can stick their globalization where the sun don't shine.

 

[DHPFLYN]

XJET MEC can stick their globalization where the sun don't shine.

Sad thing is you guys are proud to have PBS !!!!!

 

[Freebrd]

end thread end! Enough already

 

[www.]

All you say is that because it is globalized it doesn't honor seniority, that is like saying because it is PBS it does not give you max vacation. Who have you talked to about smartpref?

If your seniority can hold a pairing you will get it. The best part is smartpref shows you in real time what you can and can't hold, sounds pretty seniority based to me. It doesn't take days and tons of man hours and a coin flip to come up with a solution like flightline. It you can hold it, it is yours. If your preferences are vague it might move a few trips around to avoid putting senior people on reserve and giving lines to junior pilots. Again, let us test it out for awhile and learn about it. It can do some cool things faster and more efficient than flightline. Just be humble and admit you don't know as much as you think you do.

Uh...no it does not. The globalization is not active until AFTER the bid closes.

 

[cybourg10]

Uh...no it does not. The globalization is not active until AFTER the bid closes.

From our PBS report:

"One of the most appealing features of SmartPref is that the system runs live throughout the bidding window. A pilot can see what their line would be, based on their preferences, the available flying, and all senior pilots preferences continuously throughout the bid window. Unlike other Systems, in which a pilot is given 12 feedback loops a year (one per month – mess up your bid this month, try again next month) a pilot is granted essentially infinite feedback loops in SmartPref. A pilot can change their preferences and click rebuild, and within a few seconds see exactly what line would be awarded. Approximately every 10 to 15 minutes, the system updates all pilots’ bids together. Not only does this take a lot of the guessing game out of the line award, but it also makes the learning process significantly easier."

Maybe you know more than they do but I doubt it seeing as you have never used smartpref.

 

[dojetdriver]

Uh...no it does not. The globalization is not active until AFTER the bid closes.

Not true Speedtape, errrr, I mean www. Globalization looks forward, BEFORE the sort/solution is run.

Unstacking looks backwards. AFTER the sort/solution is run.

And just like unstacking, globalization can have a level at which it occurs. Be it a percentile of the bidders, OR line, etc. That is, IF that percentile or line is even put into the software via negotiation/work rule language.

If only guys took the time to educate themselves about the systems themselves and it's all about how the 1's and 0's are arranged, as well as how the work rules govern said 1's and 0's.

 

[79%N1]

I think ASA guys can be open to this new system. Biddings is bidding, right? Where you lose me, and a lot of us is the insistance on a large open time pot after the bids are run - thus leaving many more pilots on reserve. I'm not interested in sitting reserve so the guys above me can trade their schedules. Besides, if you wanted a pairing in PBS that made it all the way through the bids into open time --- you could have had that pairing when you bid the first time!

 

[dojetdriver]

I think ASA guys can be open to this new system. Biddings is bidding, right? Where you lose me, and a lot of us is the insistance on a large open time pot after the bids are run - thus leaving many more pilots on reserve.

Not exactly, the secondary/relief lines take care of it and leave less reserve pilots than you might believe. And a point that often gets neglected is this; What happened in December on the CRJ when the XJT pairing generator was used on the ASA side and a more efficient sort/solution was run? It created a crap ton MORE reserve pilots than before. And sadly, that wasn't even the most efficient sort/solution that COULD have been used.

And thus spurns the circular argument. What do you want? Do you want something that is more "efficient" for the company and needs LESS pilots overall and could lead to displacements/furloughs? Or are you interested in a system that keeps more CA's around and more pilots on the list?

And puuuuuuhhhh-leeeeeeeeze, don't even bring the "we've gotta be cost competitive, otherwise we'll go out of business" argument.

I'm not interested in sitting reserve so the guys above me can trade their schedules. Besides, if you wanted a pairing in PBS that made it all the way through the bids into open time --- you could have had that pairing when you bid the first time!

Well of course. That's assuming that a high credit window WASN'T being used and said pairing may not have been able to meet the window, thus denying the pilot said pairing?

 

[cybourg10]

I think ASA guys can be open to this new system. Biddings is bidding, right? Where you lose me, and a lot of us is the insistance on a large open time pot after the bids are run - thus leaving many more pilots on reserve. I'm not interested in sitting reserve so the guys above me can trade their schedules. Besides, if you wanted a pairing in PBS that made it all the way through the bids into open time --- you could have had that pairing when you bid the first time!

In my discussions with the scheduling committee members they said we wouldn't want a ton of open time after the bid but also not allow it to allow no open time. A ton of open time would be a deal breaker for me as well. You are correct, if the pairing is still there no one wanted it bad enough to bid it.

 

[rjacobs]

Our(XJT) guys are still stuck on the idea of line improvement that we in a lot of cases, especially junior guys, need to do right now to make your line better so having a pool of open time is essential. What I keep trying to tell guys is that with PBS, in theory, you dont need that because PBS can, again, in theory, build you the line you want the first time and not need a line improvement window. And while I like our line improvement windows they are not without their issues especially when it comes to IT issues(which seem to happen EVERY ********************ING MONTH) and you get screwed. But at the same time as I do like them I honestly have not touched my line during the initial window in at least 6 months because the lines I have been getting met my parameters, but I am also in the top 80 FO's in ORD and have an easy commute. Saying that does not mean that I dont think that, right now, the ILIW and SLIW do not matter because they do and a ton of guys use them to better their schedules. I just think that our guys need to think outside the box a bit and what we have now may not be applicable to a new system at all.

 

[SSDD]

Our(XJT) guys are still stuck on the idea of line improvement that we in a lot of cases, especially junior guys, need to do right now to make your line better so having a pool of open time is essential. What I keep trying to tell guys is that with PBS, in theory, you dont need that because PBS can, again, in theory, build you the line you want the first time and not need a line improvement window. And while I like our line improvement windows they are not without their issues especially when it comes to IT issues(which seem to happen EVERY ********************ING MONTH) and you get screwed. But at the same time as I do like them I honestly have not touched my line during the initial window in at least 6 months because the lines I have been getting met my parameters, but I am also in the top 80 FO's in ORD and have an easy commute. Saying that does not mean that I dont think that, right now, the ILIW and SLIW do not matter because they do and a ton of guys use them to better their schedules. I just think that our guys need to think outside the box a bit and what we have now may not be applicable to a new system at all.

Bingo! rjacobs gets it!

 

[No Delay]

I understand line improvement. I understand sometimes situations change in our life and we need to make changes to our schedules. But wouldn't make more sense, instead of having a certain amount of initial open time, to develop a system that would allow us to drop something off of our schedule? More times than not, I would pick up more flying but a certain trip on my schedule has my whole plan messed up.

Maybe a system to allow a temporary drop. maybe allowed to drop a % of your schedule. then you are blocked from drops until you pick back up to a certain %. You can have controls...that could change % allowed to drop or block all drops if the open time increase above a defined level.

you would essentially have open time. but not require the company to produce that open time. also, the open time we have now only allows trades (if you are lucky). sometimes we need to just drop.

My idea is not fully developed...but my point is I think we are going about the issue the wrong way. I think there is a better ways to improve / change our schedules than trying to force the company to create open time. If we could drop occasionally, there would be plenty of open time.

Just an idea....

 

[Freebrd]

the Co DOESN'T want open time, or as little of it as possible, hence PBS

 

[79%N1]

the Co DOESN'T want open time, or as little of it as possible, hence PBS

And yet XJT guys would want an open time pot WITH PBS. Doesn't make sense, and won't happen.

 

[bigshooter107]

Not exactly, the secondary/relief lines take care of it and leave less reserve pilots than you might believe. And a point that often gets neglected is this; What happened in December on the CRJ when the XJT pairing generator was used on the ASA side and a more efficient sort/solution was run? It created a crap ton MORE reserve pilots than before. And sadly, that wasn't even the most efficient sort/solution that COULD have been used.

On the 700 capt side there were 5 or 6 pairings with illegal overnights built in that the computer could not award to complete schedules with vacation or training.

Hence a couple xtra reserve guys...

 

[dojetdriver]

On the 700 capt side there were 5 or 6 pairings with illegal overnights built in that the computer could not award to complete schedules with vacation or training.

Hence a couple xtra reserve guys...

NOPE, the 200 had way more productive pairings than previous. So maybe the 700 saw a "couple" extra reserves, the 200 say way more than before.

 

[wms]

In my discussions with the scheduling committee members they said we wouldn't want a ton of open time after the bid but also not allow it to allow no open time. A ton of open time would be a deal breaker for me as well. You are correct, if the pairing is still there no one wanted it bad enough to bid it.

Xjet line bidding, lots of open time, reserve open time pick up within 48 hours. Anything else is a no vote.

www.nopbs.com

PS There is no way for the crj guys to vote on this website. Can you fix that?

 

[bigshooter107]

Xjet line bidding, lots of open time, reserve open time pick up within 48 hours. Anything else is a no vote.

www.nopbs.com

PS There is no way for the crj guys to vote on this website. Can you fix that?

Doubt there is any chance of a contract without PBS, its industry standard now.

 

[wms]

Doubt there is any chance of a contract without PBS, its industry standard now.

Unless the majority vote no.