Expressjet concessionary LOA/TA out

[V1rowt8]

Bourg,

For this thing to pass, the company has to sway as many votes as possible. They are counting on guys and gals like you to think just this very thing " I can replace this 40k a year job". I assume that you want to make a career in aviation. One day you will have more seniority and much more to lose. The irony is that you should not be making 40k a year but much more for what we do. If you want to ever make much more than that in aviation, a firm message not just to Expressjet but to all carriers should be sent by voting no to this concession.

Fraternally

 

[cybourg10]

V1rowt8,

I respect your opinion, but it seems you are very detatched to what is really going on here. You stated that the company is counting on me, and how part of that is true my own union is telling me this is what is best for our pilot group. The same group of guys that negotiated one of the best regional pilot contracts we have seen. I am NOT listening to the company, I AM putting trust in my local ALPA MEC. I know it is hard to hear the company suggest paycuts in 2008 and not assume they are just trying to line their pockets with bonuses, I have done enough research to know that is not what is happening. It has been clearly laid out what will happen if we vote no and that is XJT will liquidate at the rate of 10-15a/c per month to the benefit of other airlines such as SkyWest and CHQ. I respect pilots from other airlines opinion's on this but if you don't know all the facts you can not make an informed suggestion. I do not trust management, I do however trust my MEC. It just so happens that they agree on what needs to happen to keep this company alive.

 

[Nevets]

However, a pay cut is a pay cut. Whether management uses a carrot (the old flow through) or a stick (threat of bk) pilots have to stand up and protect the profession. I guess if this LOA passes we could add Xjet to your above list - (i.e. "...pilots wouldn't have to take a paycut if their weren't CHQ or Mesa OR XJET pilots flying for less). cybourg10, even at your current payrates YOU think that you are underpaid (reference your profile "underpaid"). Why settle for less when you are already "underpaid".

Nevets,
Don't get me wrong, I respect your position and understand looking at losing your job is daunting. I was furloughed from Xjet for two years. BK is not a sure thing. Too many people are behaving like BK is a foregone conclusion. Regardless, even if BK is the only other option, the point is the profession has already bottomed out. Until FO's are no longer on food stamps there should not even be a hint of concessions. As someone asked earlier, just how little do you think you are worth?

With your logic, as long as BK is threatened, pilots should simply give in just to live another day. Let's call spade a spade. That's not standing up for our profession. That is caving in and thinking of yourself only.

The threat of BK if this doesn't pass is real. CAL told XJT to give them savings on the magnitude of Skywest or lose all CAL flying with the wind down starting in 365 days. XJT signed on the dotted line and were left with a CPA that pays X amount per block hour and an estimate of block hour going forward, which were trending down. Its simple math to compute income in with this CPA. The only thing XJT controls is wages, maintenance, and overhead. They've negotiated or in the process of negotiating many of the "power by the hour" maintenance deals, cut back 20% of employees, and have given non-union employees their paycut back on July 1. They've figured that they need about 7% to break even on the CPA. If this doesn't pass, there is no way for this company to make money. The company will cease to be viable and eventually burn through cash to a point of a BK filling. The chapter would be up to the BOD, I guess.

If this does pass, captains will still be at the top of the industry and FOs will be in the top third. Its not a matter of settling for less but of settling for a modest paycut and still remain above the CHQ, Mesa, and everyone else.

I do not fear losing my job. I rather not because I enjoy it and would rather not call in favors over that. But if everyone at XJT does lose their job, how does it help the industry to have Mesa, CHQ, Colgan, Skywest, etc take over and do the same flying with a contract that isn't as good even considering the concession? Since BK is a credible threat, its smarter to retreat and live to fight another day to keep our good contract intact. Keep in mind that XJT will be in full section 6 negotiations in just over 18 months.

Its not that the company says we will filling for BK if this doesn't pass, its all facts taken into account to conclude that in fact there is a very credible possibility that that would happen.

I'm hardly thinking for myself. I understand that this LOA will impact 6,000 employees of XJT.

 

[Nevets]

The ONLY reason that I would even consider this LOA is because of the trustworthy and diligent MEC and union leadership at Xjet. I agree that they did a great job on Contract 04 and (most) LOA's since. They are class guys that, IMHO, truly have the best interests of the pilot group as their priority.

However, in the end the only reason I see many voting yes on this LOA is because of FEAR. As I and someone else asked Nevets - how little do you think you are worth? If Ream said you needed to take a 50% pay cut or the airline would go bankrupt would you give in?

Its not fear if the threat is credible. Its just making the best possible choice taking facts into consideration.

They could have asked for 25% or 50% to make a profit. But they've made a calculation of asking for just enough of a pay cut to pretty much break even. The risk/reward computation is just not worth possibly having the contract gutted in BK court or XJT ceasing to exist versus taking a 6.78% paycut (2.83% of which is actual decrease in pay). Sorry, just not worth it in my opinion.

And to answer your question, I'm worth more than zero, which is what will happen if the company ceases to exist.

 

[V1rowt8]

Bourg,

MEC negotiators, company, same thing. Our MEC is alot closer to the company than you think. Bottom line is even if the MEC or company thinks this will pass, the pilots,us will have the final say. I do not believe that if we vote this down, go into BK and liquidate that Cal can afford to lose 45% of its flying. It would be to their benefit to re-negotiate a better CPA that alows XJT to more than break even. This is what our company officers are paid to do. We are paid to fly aircraft and not subsidize the company and figure out financial its financial issues.

 

[Nevets]

Bourg,

The proposed concession is much more than 2.83%. Say for a Captain currently earning around $79.69 an hour will see $85.46 an hour by next year decreasing his pay by $8.02 an hour if this concession is voted in. Not to mention the 401k contribution lost from the conceded pay. And in a year the pay would be increased not by 2.83% but by 2.06%. Combine this with the fact that average line values are down dramatically, one will see a realized pay cut of a minimum of $1000 to $2500 a month. The price of oil is dropping, many experts expect it to be in the $60 a barrell soon. Our job is to do our job, fly folks from here to there professionaly. And that is what we should be paid as, Professionals. Not to mention that many of our first officers can qualify for food stamps already!! I for one will be voting no. If there was a hell no box, I would check that one too!!

Keep in mind that its a 2.83% pay cut in what you make now. The rest is a decrease on what you would have made otherwise.

Average line values have nothing to do with the LOA. That will happen regardless. But since we are throwing irrelevant things into the equation, don't forget to take into account that there are no captains being paid the 135 rate either. Also keep in mind that if we didn't have LOA8, that same captain making $79.69 would be making $84.54 instead. In other words, you can say that LOA9 just takes most of the future increases in pay that LOA8 gave us but we get to keep all the work rule improvements it gave us (no one has seen any of the LOA8 raises).

Oil is almost irrelevant because XJT pays zero of the fuel bill.

 

[Nevets]

Bourg,

For this thing to pass, the company has to sway as many votes as possible. They are counting on guys and gals like you to think just this very thing " I can replace this 40k a year job". I assume that you want to make a career in aviation. One day you will have more seniority and much more to lose. The irony is that you should not be making 40k a year but much more for what we do. If you want to ever make much more than that in aviation, a firm message not just to Expressjet but to all carriers should be sent by voting no to this concession.

Fraternally

This is precisely why we need a national seniority list or at least a mechanism like the one the fee for departure task for is working on and the the Canadian pilots enjoy. Unfortunately, until that happens, managements will be able to have the upper hand because of the fear of pilots being recycled otherwise.

Just think about it for a bit. XYZ management ask for concessions to save the company or otherwise everyone loses their jobs. If pilots had a mechanism in which they would be able to bid, with seniority and longevity, on any vacancies created by the company who took over the flying, then there would less reluctance to vote no on such measures.

 

[V1rowt8]

Keep in mind that its a 2.83% pay cut in what you make now. The rest is a decrease on what you would have made otherwise.

Average line values have nothing to do with the LOA. That will happen regardless. But since we are throwing irrelevant things into the equation, don't forget to take into account that there are no captains being paid the 135 rate either. Also keep in mind that if we didn't have LOA8, that same captain making $79.69 would be making $84.54 instead. In other words, you can say that LOA9 just takes most of the future increases in pay that LOA8 gave us but we get to keep all the work rule improvements it gave us (no one has seen any of the LOA8 raises).

Oil is almost irrelevant because XJT pays zero of the fuel bill.

Oil is relevant in the charter ops and can be used to negotiate a better cpa with cal on the grounds that CAL is buying fuel at a better price, if they had not hedged at $142 a barrell.

 

[Nevets]

Oil is relevant in the charter ops and can be used to negotiate a better cpa with cal on the grounds that CAL is buying fuel at a better price, if they had not hedged at $142 a barrell.

Price of fuel is passed on to the customer in charter ops. And there are no grounds to negotiate anything with CAL anymore. The terms of the contract are set and even if oil goes down to $10 there is nothing XJT can do to compel CAL to give them a better deal. Anyways, CAL pays 100% of the fuel. The block hour rate is offset only by wages, maintenance, and overhead.

 

[PCL_128]

Keep in mind that XJT will be in full section 6 negotiations in just over 18 months.

Yes, but what difference does it make? They'll still have the same CPA with CAL, which you claim makes it impossible for them to make money with your current contract, so what do you think you'll be able to accomplish in Section 6? Give more away? You've basically established a ceiling with these concessions, so you might as well just give up your right to Section 6 negotiations. What's the point?

 

[cybourg10]

Yes, but what difference does it make? They'll still have the same CPA with CAL, which you claim makes it impossible for them to make money with your current contract, so what do you think you'll be able to accomplish in Section 6? Give more away? You've basically established a ceiling with these concessions, so you might as well just give up your right to Section 6 negotiations. What's the point?

That is an excellent point and that was my first thought when we heard we needed paycuts. How can we get back to our original pay (plus more?) in 2010 if we still have this same CPA? The answer is our rates will increase as the years move forward with this CPA plus more incentives for on time performance and fuel burn starting on July 09. We are basically at the lowest revenue point this year and these pay cuts will allow us to break even for a year and give our management a chance to re-structure the company (hopefully outside of ch 11/7) and make us a more efficient company. We are also hoping that charter continues to expand and that the industry will start to turn around in 12-18 months, giving us a chance to sign another CPA. Whether all that happens as planned is another story but I believe it is worth the shot. Or we could take your attitude and just say what is the point?

 

[Nevets]

Yes, but what difference does it make? They'll still have the same CPA with CAL, which you claim makes it impossible for them to make money with your current contract, so what do you think you'll be able to accomplish in Section 6? Give more away? You've basically established a ceiling with these concessions, so you might as well just give up your right to Section 6 negotiations. What's the point?

The point is that LOA9 gives us a better chance at getting to section 6 negotiations. Eighteen months is a long time away in airline time. The new cpa removes the most favored nation clause, the hub restrictions, and lowers the lease price of any aircraft XJT decides to use outside the CAL cpa. If XJT can weather this storm, they will be in great position to capture more flying. The point is to survive now and so that XJT is in existence to be able to prosper later.

 

[Turtlesfly]

Nevets

What you don't mention is that one reason why the pilots aren't too exicted about it (although I do think it will still pass) is because this isn't just a "weather the storm." 7 years is not "weathering the storm" - this is a new way of life forever. Furthermore, there is absolutely no give and take here, except for a phantom profit sharing which will never happen (can't happen - look at the numbers). This wasn't a "we can fix this for your paycuts. Nothing. Just "give us your money forever."

 

[Nevets]

Nevets

What you don't mention is that one reason why the pilots aren't too exicted about it (although I do think it will still pass) is because this isn't just a "weather the storm." 7 years is not "weathering the storm" - this is a new way of life forever. Furthermore, there is absolutely no give and take here, except for a phantom profit sharing which will never happen (can't happen - look at the numbers). This wasn't a "we can fix this for your paycuts. Nothing. Just "give us your money forever."

Well I thought I made a point that the new cpa removes the most favored nation clause, the hub restrictions, and lower lease rates for aircraft XJT uses outside the CAL cpa. This LOA is to break even on the CAL cpa so that the company stops bleeding the bank dry to the point of losing liquidity and forcing it into BK. Its just to get us through this economic downturn and position us for possible flying opportunities in the future. If XJT can see this through and get some additional flying, that is where the profit would come from and possibly trigger the profit sharing or snapback provisions.

Certainly, they could've asked for 50% cut and project to make $75M in profits but I think just giving them enough to get through the tough times and give the company an opportunity to exist so they can at least bid on new flying was the better way to go.

Sorry, if that point was made any clearer in my previous post.

 

[Popeye0537]

The point is that LOA9 gives us a better chance at getting to section 6 negotiations. Eighteen months is a long time away in airline time. The new cpa removes the most favored nation clause, the hub restrictions, and lowers the lease price of any aircraft XJT decides to use outside the CAL cpa. If XJT can weather this storm, they will be in great position to capture more flying. The point is to survive now and so that XJT is in existence to be able to prosper later.

Prosper with whom? Last time I looked no one was adding to the 50 seat market, and with no capital to speak of how are you going to purchase any new larger A/C.

I feel for you guys really....don't take this personal but you were on top of the food chain by defalut. Comair, ASA stood in that #1 spot and now look where they are.

If you guys take the projected 2.8% increasing to 6% cut there is no way your making more money than I am here at CHQ or the guys at Skywest. I made mabey 1%(on the 50 seat) less than you do now. Please explain your math.

 

[Nevets]

Prosper with whom? Last time I looked no one was adding to the 50 seat market, and with no capital to speak of how are you going to purchase any new larger A/C.

I feel for you guys really....don't take this personal but you were on top of the food chain by defalut. Comair, ASA stood in that #1 spot and now look where they are.

If you guys take the projected 2.8% increasing to 6% cut there is no way your making more money than I am here at CHQ or the guys at Skywest. I made mabey 1%(on the 50 seat) less than you do now. Please explain your math.

There will always be a market for 50 seat jets just like there are markets for 19, 30, and 70 seat turboprops. Remember people saying that were no market for them as well. Its not always about adding to the 50 seat market. Its about capturing as much of it as you can for yourself. Also, sometimes the financing comes from the mainline partner when it comes to new aircraft. That is precisely how XJT operates their jets and many other regionals as well.

Its a matter of surviving now so to at least have the chance on bidding on any future flying when the economy and airline industry turns around.

Certainly there have been others at the top. AWA was at the top before they had to give some away. Then Comair was at the top after their strike. XJT followed shortly afterward to exceed that. Now Comair had to give some back and XJT is there also. But if you actually look at the 50 seat rates, you'll see that even after the paycut, XJT will still be at the top of the industry for captains and in the top third for FOs. Keep in mind that its not all in the rates. XJT gets a 4% match in their 401k and a 2.5% retirement contribution as well as favorable vacation bidding rules, etc.

By the way, its a 2.83% cut and a freeze at that rate for one year. Then its a 2.06% raise Oct 1, 09 followed by a 3% raise Dec 1, 09.

I'll assume you are a three year FO at CHQ. At XJT, after the paycut, a three year FO will make $35.57. On Oct 1, 09 that same pilot will make $37.63 and on Dec 1, 09 he/she will make $38.76. A three year CHQ FO will make $36-$37. The three year Skywest pilot will make $37.10-$39.02. AWA, ASA, and SKW will make more than a three year XJT FO, taking the paycut into consideration, by at most $1-$2.

 

[cybourg10]

Prosper with whom? Last time I looked no one was adding to the 50 seat market, and with no capital to speak of how are you going to purchase any new larger A/C.

I feel for you guys really....don't take this personal but you were on top of the food chain by defalut. Comair, ASA stood in that #1 spot and now look where they are.

If you guys take the projected 2.8% increasing to 6% cut there is no way your making more money than I am here at CHQ or the guys at Skywest. I made mabey 1%(on the 50 seat) less than you do now. Please explain your math.

That is the truth. After the paycut XJT pilots will still be better paid than CHQ pilots on the 50 seat jet with better work rules such as pay protection for cancelled flights. I am sorry you don't believe it but that does not change the facts. I am not trying to imply that my airline is better than yours, I think those posts are idiotic, I am just stating the facts. Our union has come out with a revised pay scale in a power point put out by the union that compares all 50 seat jet payscales and XJT is still above CHQ. You never made mabye 1% less than XJT pilots as you stated. Hopefully you guys will top our pay here in the next contract as that helps everyone.

 

[djsk]

With oil prices cut in half you guys better not take a pay cut.

 

[cybourg10]

With oil prices cut in half you guys better not take a pay cut.

Do you even know what is going on? If you did you would know that oil prices have no effect on our revenue. Have you researched the situation or just saw paycuts and $77 oil and put two and two together?

 

[Nevets]

With oil prices cut in half you guys better not take a pay cut.

CAL pays XJT a fixed block hour rate regardless of what they pay for fuel. And they pay for 100% of the fuel enplaned onto XJT aircraft.