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Ex-United pilots weigh future without pension

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TAZ MAN

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Posts
271
Ex-United pilots weigh future without pension
With United Airlines on a mission to end its pension plans, local retired pilots are left asking, "Where's the money?"


14,000: The estimated number of active and retired pilots at United Airlines

$2.9B: The amount that United pilots' pension plan is underfunded

$8.3B: The amount that all ur of United's pension plans are underfunded (flight attendants, machinists/ground workers, ramp workers/ticket agents and pilots)

$1.5B: Loss to pilots' pension, even if federal agency takes over pension plan

Source: Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.


BY APRIL TAYLOR

January 30, 2005

In the 35 years he worked as a pilot for United Airlines, Ken Bradley of Williamsburg survived bomb threats, engine failures, emergency landings - even the hijacking of a Boeing 727 flight out of Denver by a man with a pistol and hand grenade back in April 1972. Bradley was the co-pilot on the flight.

The latest fear he faces is a heavy blow to his upper middle class way of living - Bradley, 64, stands to lose the bulk of his pension, as United Airlines moves toward ending its employee pension funds.

"Everything my wife and I planned on was based on my pension," said Bradley, who said he is fighting debt and searching for another source of income.

Bradley retired four years ago as a senior airline captain with United Airlines - federal law requires pilots to retire at 60. Bradley has been flying since he was 16. The retired life that Bradley said he worked hard all his life for is now shaky.

"We've been very fortunate in our lives, but we don't think it's right at this stage of life to have your old-age security ripped away from us, and that's exactly what's happening."

Bradley said he might go back to work, for his son, who is in the building industry, to make up for the pension he's about to lose.

Giving up his home is a possibility. He's also wondering how much longer he'll be able to help support his 86-year-old mother who has Alzheimer's.

"I've helped support my parents for 25 years. You start to think 'how much of that can't I do anymore?' "

Bradley also lost retirement funds that were in company stocks.

"That was going to pay off my debt mortgage," he said. "My mind is focused on survival and not knowing what's going to happen, or when it's going to happen." United Airlines, the nation's second largest air carrier, filed for bankruptcy protection in December 2002. The decision to end all of its pension plans, the company says, is critical if it is to secure the loans it needs to get out of bankruptcy.

"We're open to discussing any solutions there may be to resolving the pension issue, but right now we still believe that this is necessary for United in order to exit bankruptcy and be a competitive, sustainable enterprise," said United spokesperson Jean Medina.

UAL Corp., the holding company of United, last week reported a fourth-quarter 2004 operating loss of $493 million, compared to a $134 million operating loss in the fourth quarter of 2003.

"We're in a very difficult environment," said Medina. "Fuel prices remain at record-high levels, and air fares are at 10-year lows."

United sponsors four pension plans that cover nearly 119,00 workers and retirees, based on data by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., an agency established in 1974 under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act to secure pension benefits for workers.

The company is about to become the first major legacy carrier to terminate its pilots' pensions. If United succeeds in killing its pension plans, it would be one of the nation's largest pension defaults ever.

In mid-December, the pilots union entered a tentative agreement with United to terminate the pilot pension plan this spring in exchange for other benefit perks, including larger contributions to a new retirement plan and other benefits. It left retired pilots like Bradley and Victor Shumaker of Williamsburg the most vulnerable.

"That left the retired guys out in the cold," Shumaker said.

Of United's four pensions - for flight attendants, machinists/ground workers, ramp workers/ticket agents and pilots - the pilots' pension plan carries the biggest liability.

At the end of 2004, the PBGC asked a federal court to allow it to take over the retirement plan for Untied Airline's 14,000 active and retired pilots.

The claim would be the third largest by the agency, which is already struggling under a $23 billion deficit from other claims.

With so many legacy carriers in shaky financial states - and struggling to compete with low-cost carriers and to meet escalating fuel costs - industry experts are wondering who will follow United's lead.

"In an industry that's seen a lot of changes it shakes the confidence of other airline workers who are under pension plans," said George Novak, an aviation industry analyst at the Aviation Institute at George Washington University. "You have these pilots or other employees saying, 'how safe is my pension?"

Bradley is skeptical that the deficit-laden PBGC would be able to take on the airlines' pension claim. If the agency runs out of cash, it's the taxpayers who'll ultimately get stuck, he said.

Shumaker flew with United for 33 years, and he agrees with Bradley. Shumaker took mandatory retirement at age 60 in March 2002.

"All the other airlines will follow United," he said. "A cascading effect will shut down the PBGC."

The agency's plan is to assume responsibility for about $1.4 billion of United's $2.9 billion pilot pension shortfall, so pilots still would be facing a $1.5 billion loss in retirement benefits.

United established the airline industry's first employee pension program Jan. 1, 1941. By the end of 2003, the nation's six largest legacy carriers had pension funds with shortfalls of $20 billion.

"We're kind of at somebody else's mercy, and that's not a good feeling," said Shumaker. "It's stressful. From one month to the next, I don't know whether or not I'm going to have a check or not."

Both Bradley and Shumaker declined to give salary figures. Many United pilots are entitled to pension benefits of more than $100,000 a year.

The PBGC agency's limit for a pilot retiring at 60 is $28,848 a year, though pilots who already are retired or near retirement could be eligible for more than that, PBGC officials said. For a 65-year-old retiree, the agency's payment cap is roughly $44,388 a year. "If this pension gets dumped, the maximum payoff (from PBGC) is probably going to be about $30,000-$35,000 a year, but we can't depend on that," said Shumaker.

"I based my retirement decisions on the fact that United Airlines would continue to operate and that the pension would remain," Shumaker continued. "My wife and I have really hunkered down, paid off just about everything we could pay off. We take no vacations, waiting to see what happens. Right now, I'm driving a 5-year-old car with 90,000 miles on it. I'm not about to buy a new one."

Both Bradley and Shumaker said they are anxious and angry.

"I did everything you're supposed to do in America," said Shumaker. "I tried to do everything right - went to college, served my country, did everything United Airlines asked me to do, saved my money and in the end I get hit in the face."

Bradley spent his life flying commercial planes and can rattle off the several dozen models of general aviation planes that he knows how to fly. He met his wife, Susan, a flight attendant for United, on a flight from Los Angeles to New York City.

In his 35 years with United, he's been based in Chicago, Los Angeles, Denver and in Washington, D.C., out of Dulles International Airport. He also worked in management for many years with United.

"There are more than 5,000 retired United pilots, some of whom, like me, will lose up to 75 percent of their pensions," he said. Bradley describes himself as a hardheaded Irishmen who had to become independent at an early age in life.

"It's not like anybody's ever handed anything to me," said Bradley. "I've worked all my life for this to have someone yank it away from me."

Novak said pilots like Shumaker and Bradley had a "reasonable expectation" when they retired.

" It's something that was part of their contract," he said. "The industry fell out beneath their feet, and they are suffering for it."

As for the pilots, Novak says "It makes working at the air carriers less glamorous and less secure, but it's the changing face of air carriers - and employment expectations in general."

Shumaker calls it a "nightmare."

"And we're on the leading edge of this nightmare," he said. "All I know is that I'm about to lose 75-80 percent of my income, and if that happens, I won't be the last."
 
Yes, sad news and all that, BUT after 35 years with United, all of it on "A" scale, one would assume that the personal finances are pretty darn healthy.


The problem we pilots have is a short memory:
Braniff, Pan-Am, Eastern, etc, etc.

Pay off the house early, live reasonable and don't collect too many ex-wifes.
Then 35 years with UAL shoulld have made ya a wealthy retired pilot.

Wish I had those problems:
Been flying crappy stuff for years, no pension plans, no nothing, except some BKs and furloughs.

Cars, yacht, credit cards, ex-wifes all paid for...Just a few more years on the mortgage...Hoping to take early retirement and live of the savings in 5 years or so...If Allah will.

Sorry for the rant, but jeez, 35 years or 32 or whatever with UAL should put ya in a nice place, pension or not.
 
Like my Mom always said, "It is just as easy to fall in love with a rich girl, as it is with a poor one. Always go for the rich ones...." Thanks Mom.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
CSYMON,

What you said is exactly what I was thinking with this article and with that open letter that was posted here last week. I do feel sorry for the guys, but you can't help but wonder what you could do with 35 years at those wages. Every captain I ever flew with said maximize the B plan because you can't count on a defined pension, and it appears not everyone had that figured out. You can compare it to counting on social security. I'm not going to include social security in my retirement plans!

The best advice I ever got was to focus on what you spend, not what you earn.
 
The best advice I ever got was to focus on what you spend, not what you earn.

Amen Bro.

Indeed, we could all be optimists and buy Mercedes and fancy real estate, perhaps even with a few expensive girl friends now and then, but uh, if ya are counting on wages and retirement to make ends meet at the end of the road, ya are surely not in touch with the real wolrd.

Ah remember the best paying airline back in 1986...Flying Tigers: Senior capts made $180K back then and life was sweet.
The pan-Am guys were runners up, they had ranches in California with private helicopters and all that...Well, some of them anyway.

A few years later they were driving dump-trucks to stay out of personal BK.

Don't we ever learn?

The UAL guys with 30 plus years on the property should be smarter than writing cry-letters when Enron and other disasters are fresh in mind.

Went to a party the other day over at R.H's house, he was the UAL MEC and second in command at ALPA for years.

We had a long talk about the above, and he stands to loose a lot...But it sure was a nice house and a nice party....:D
 
TAZ MAN said:
"I did everything you're supposed to do in America," said Shumaker. "I tried to do everything right - went to college, served my country, did everything United Airlines asked me to do, saved my money and in the end I get hit in the face."

Apparently Mr Shumaker did NOT save money, or he would not be worried about the pension termination.

I got hired at UAL in the early summer 2000 and got to see way too many pilots more senior than me waste most of their money on boats, houses, planes, and wives. I was amazed at how stupid they were.
Geez, every one of them should have remembered Pan Am & Eastern; we had a bunch of ex-Pan Am and Eastern pilots flying for UAL. I knew that UAL wasn't invincible; were they so dumb that they thought that UAL couldn't stumble? Apparantly.
I jumpseated a lot, both on UAL and offline. The contrast between some UAL captains and TWA captains was amazing. Example: I was on the jumpseat with a captain showing me pictures of his three (!) airplanes, his new (just barely 30-something ex-FA) wife, and his toddler ... the guy was in his in his mid-50s. On another jumpseat, a captain with a double digit line number said to me that with the new payscale, a 747FO at UAL would make more than him. I'll let you guess which was which, and who is better equipped to handle his current retirement.

All pilots out there, wake up and take note. I don't care who you fly for; king of the hill today is lower than whale $hit tomorrow and sweating your company's survival.
Spend less than you make. Make sure that you do not carry a balance on any credit cards and max out both your IRA and 401K. If you're making $30K right now, I know that you can't do all of that, but make sure that your credit cards are paid off and you save $3K/yr (10% of your gross).

In my case, I got divorced in early 2001 and was wiped out financially. I pay child support on two children. In spite of all that, I max out my IRA, my childrens' education IRAs and my 401k. I even have $80K in cash saved up that I couldn't put into any of the previous investments. I lived a bit frugally, but I've never hesitated to spend money on things that I've wanted to do. ... I just don't want to own an airplane, boat, multiple cars/motorcycles, or a big house. (OK, I wouldn't mind owning all of that stuff, but not until I have a huge nest egg saved).

The two retirees in this article should be held up as examples of how NOT to mismanage your finances.
 
Last edited:
CSY Mon said:
Yes, sad news and all that, BUT after 35 years with United, all of it on "A" scale, one would assume that the personal finances are pretty darn healthy.


The problem we pilots have is a short memory:
Braniff, Pan-Am, Eastern, etc, etc.

Pay off the house early, live reasonable and don't collect too many ex-wifes.
Then 35 years with UAL shoulld have made ya a wealthy retired pilot.

Wish I had those problems:
Been flying crappy stuff for years, no pension plans, no nothing, except some BKs and furloughs.

Cars, yacht, credit cards, ex-wifes all paid for...Just a few more years on the mortgage...Hoping to take early retirement and live of the savings in 5 years or so...If Allah will.

Sorry for the rant, but jeez, 35 years or 32 or whatever with UAL should put ya in a nice place, pension or not.

You forgot to mention the annuity ....
 
You finger pointers forgot something. A large portion of the B fund went towards the esop which went away with the bankruptcy. Also, depending on when you retire, the value of a B fund can fluctuate quite a bit. Just ask the EAL pilots who had a large portion of theirs invested in real estate that was highly depressed at the time of the bankruptcy and subsequent liquidation. Let he who is without sin....
 

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