Ex-Gulfstream International Airline pilot files complaint with FAA

[PURPLEHAZE21]

the TCAS isn't the issue...the management is. I've flown with those guys from Gulfstream and heard the horrors. I thought MESA was bad....it does get worse. As a former commuter pilot, stay strong and dont ever let the company/ management make "Your flying decisions". Whats the worse that happens....you lose your job at a poorly run company who would self disclose on you in a heart beat to the FAA. Yes...You can get hired somewhere else !!!

 

[PA31Driver]

If it is mel'd, then the FAA has deemed it to be both legal AND safe.

Yeah, the FAA has also deemed the current duty/rest times legal and SAFE.

Once again, just because it's legal does not mean it's safe.

 

[Poahi]

Legal does not = airworthy. It's up to the PIC to determine whether the aircraft is truly airworthy.

True dat! The day you take away the Captain's authority to determine whether or not the flight can be completed safely is the day you take away his responsibility if it doesn't.

And when that happens, the traveling public should know we have lawyers flying airplanes from the ground. Lawyers may be able to argue with a judge over a legality issue, but they can't argue their way out of on-coming traffic.

Here's another thought. If you have a mechanical discrepancy and all a mechanic does is reset a CB and ops checks it okay on the ground, I think it's entirely reasonable for a Captain not to trust it especially if your airline has a history of doing that sort of thing and it gets written up multiple times.

 

[Say Again Over]

The day you take away the Captain's authority to determine whether or not the flight can be completed safely is the day you take away his responsibility if it doesn't

Well whatever you and PCL are smoking it must be the same brand, good luck with that defense.

 

[Poahi]

Well whatever you and PCL are smoking it must be the same brand, good luck with that defense.

Say It Again Over,

I am so glad that someone with over 13,000 hours in this industry has the ability to come on a message board and complain about how TCAS wasn't necessary.

Many who have come before you and me have died giving us the tools to help keep us safe and have made this industry what it is today. Maybe if you had family or friends on Aeromexico 498 you would have a different view.

MEL relief doesn't give you the relief from using good judgement. I probably would have taken that plane, but from what I understand, his actions were reasonable and not worthy of termination. Let's see what the jury comes up with.

 

[Poahi]

the TCAS isn't the issue...the management is. I've flown with those guys from Gulfstream and heard the horrors. I thought MESA was bad....it does get worse. As a former commuter pilot, stay strong and dont ever let the company/ management make "Your flying decisions". Whats the worse that happens....you lose your job at a poorly run company who would self disclose on you in a heart beat to the FAA. Yes...You can get hired somewhere else !!!

Just imagine what the posts would look like on this board if something would have happened on that flight.

"I can't believe that guy took an airplane without TCAS at a low altitude and flew it all over southern Florida with passengers on board." "What an idiot!" "My family will never fly on Gulfstream again!"

"Those pilots are inexperienced and can't think for themselves!"

Yet when a pilot makes a decision based on reasonable judgement and safety concerns some people on this board can't wait to bash him. Very sad.

 

[BOHICAgain]

Just imagine what the posts would look like on this board if something would have happened on that flight.

"I can't believe that guy took an airplane without TCAS at a low altitude and flew it all over southern Florida with passengers on board." "What an idiot!" "My family will never fly on Gulfstream again!"

"Those pilots are inexperienced and can't think for themselves!"

Yet when a pilot makes a decision based on reasonable judgement and safety concerns some people on this board can't wait to bash him. Very sad.

excellent point...

That would have been the nicer of the post, im sure that the FI folks would come up with much worse than that

 

[JustaNumber]

Well whatever you and PCL are smoking it must be the same brand, good luck with that defense.

I guess a lot of us captains are smoking the same brand, thank goodness.

Straight from the preamble to our company's MEL (which is probably similar to all approved MEL's):

"Operators are responsible for exercising the necessary operational control to ensure that an
acceptable level of safety is maintained. When operating with multiple inoperative items, the
interrelationships between those items and the effect on aircraft operation and crew workload will be
considered.

WHEN USING THE MEL, COMPLIANCE WITH THE STATED INTENT OF THE PREAMBLE,
DEFINITIONS, AND THE CONDITIONS AND LIMITATIONS SPECIFIED IN THE MEL IS REQUIRED."
(I didn't even have to add the all caps).

In addition, FAR 91.3(a) states that "[t]he pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

I'm no lawyer, but I believe that this defense is quite clear and more than adequate. I have to add, that I hope for your passengers' sake, that you are not acting as PIC at present.

 

[Say Again Over]

So let me see, you guys are now scared to fly without TCAS, because you are the final authority, and look what happened in Los Angeles, yata yata... You guys are hilarious.

 

[Say Again Over]

I'm no lawyer, but I believe that this defense is quite clear and more than adequate. I have to add, that I hope for your passengers' sake, that you are not acting as PIC at present.

That's obvious, and yes, I was probably a PIC before you were born.

 

[JustaNumber]

So let me see, you guys are now scared to fly without TCAS, because you are the final authority, and look what happened in Los Angeles, yata yata... You guys are hilarious.

No, I'm not scared to fly without TCAS, done it many times. You're missing the main point of this discussion, though: a captain being disciplined for using judgment to comply with the regs. The regs require him to consider the interrelationship of MEL items, and to act as the final authority as to the safe operation of the flight. This particular captain did just that, and was fired. If we start nit picking which judgment calls are allowed and which aren't, we might as well kiss Captain's Authority goodbye, and THAT would be a severe detriment to safety. Why even have a captain? Do you really want that?

 

[Say Again Over]

No, I'm not scared to fly without TCAS, done it many times. You're missing the main point of this discussion, though: a captain being disciplined for using judgment to comply with the regs. The regs require him to consider the interrelationship of MEL items, and to act as the final authority as to the safe operation of the flight. This particular captain did just that, and was fired. If we start nit picking which judgment calls are allowed and which aren't, we might as well kiss Captain's Authority goodbye, and THAT would be a severe detriment to safety. Why even have a captain? Do you really want that?

Well please allow me to disagree with that logic, as far as the MEL goes, it's pretty much black or white as far as airworthiness. The regs require him to consider what???? I'm sorry but the approved MMEL does this. Nit picking judgement calls, please tell why one would not be able to fly across Florida safely without the use of TCAS, all you guys are trying to blow smoke up my ### telling me about captain's final authority bla bla but not one of you has pointed out why this was such a wise decision. Now take into consideration that on any given day, there are several aircraft operating in the system without TCAS because of the class they're in and several others that probably have inoperative systems and are following their MEL procedures, so based on your logic, I will now have to use my authority to cancel all flights?

Bottom line is that YES, you can decide not to accept a flight but you need to have some reasonable justification, what was it in this case, oh ya, the DC9 accident in LA, good luck, this guy will never be able to keep a job if that's the best he can do.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Well please allow me to disagree with that logic, as far as the MEL goes, it's pretty much black or white as far as airworthiness. The regs require him to consider what???? I'm sorry but the approved MMEL does this.

I agree with you that the MEL and maintenance determine mechanical airworthiness, but we are still required to determine operational airworthiness. For example, it may be legal to defer the autopilot, but what if you are flying on a 5 hour flight with a brand new FO into an airport surrounded by level 5 thunderstorms and the radar display is also legally deferred only on the captain's side? Mechanically airworthy, yes, but operationally is for the capt. to decide.

Just like in this situation, everybody is going to have a different answer. Some people may have been comfortable taking the A/C in florida with no TCAS and pressurization through a training area and some may not. However, unless the refusal is extremely egregious, a termination is probably extreme.

 

[sswanson]

INOP TCAS will ground an airplane?

That' what I don't get.

I know you need it for RVSM airspace.

I guess looking out the window doesn't count anymore.

Ok I get... they fly in the south where there is a lot of solid IFR condition.

Dude its a 1900, Im pretty sure they dont spend time in RVSM.

 

[Say Again Over]

Well I've worked at a lot of different operations and refusing to take a flight is always a BIG (as in a trip to the chief pilot's office) problem. By the way, TCAS is not required in RVSM.

 

[JustaNumber]

The regs require him to consider what???? I'm sorry but the approved MMEL does this.

You didn't read my previous post. The regs specifically require him to consider the interrelationship of multiple MEL items; NO, the MMEL does not do this.

DIRECTLY FROM THE MEL:
"When operating with multiple inoperative items, the
interrelationships between those items and the effect on aircraft operation and crew workload will be
considered.
WHEN USING THE MEL, COMPLIANCE WITH THE STATED INTENT OF THE PREAMBLE,
DEFINITIONS, AND THE CONDITIONS AND LIMITATIONS SPECIFIED IN THE MEL IS REQUIRED."

Nit picking judgement calls, please tell why one would not be able to fly across Florida safely without the use of TCAS, all you guys are trying to blow smoke up my ### telling me about captain's final authority bla bla but not one of you has pointed out why this was such a wise decision.

I don't have to tell you why it was a wise decision. The FARs specifically say that it's the captain's decision, wise or not. Not your decision, not my decision, not GIA's decision, but the captain's decision.

By your logic, you think that the captain can make decisions only if they pass your definition of "wise". Do you really want management to have FAR 91.3 changed to read that "The company and the administrator will jointly be directly responsible for, and are the final authority as to, the safe operation of that aircraft." That's not a road that I want to go down.

I still just can't believe that you're advocating giving away captain's authority, perfect decisions or not.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

This guy wasn't fired for exercising his PIC authority and canceling this particular flight. That would be silly (which it is anyhow).

IMO, the termination did not take place in such a vacuum. There was more animosity involved aside from a single cancelled flight.

Just my speculation.

 

[JustaNumber]

Well I've worked at a lot of different operations and refusing to take a flight is always a BIG (as in a trip to the chief pilot's office) problem.

Just because management at the companies you've worked for have intimidated you into giving up captain's authority, doesn't make it morally, ethically, or even legally right. Grow some cajones, why don't you!

Sure, the company can try to make it a big deal (they're just trying to make as much money as possible), but if you want to make your own decisions as captain, you have every right to. Heck, you've got the FARs to back you up, and you, and the captain in question here, will win any legal battle in question.

 

[Say Again Over]

Just because management at the companies you've worked for have intimidated you into giving up captain's authority, doesn't make it morally, ethically, or even legally right. Grow some cajones, why don't you!

You're making a lot of assumptions you know nothing about, and it doesn't take cajones to operate an aircraft safely, but a little bit of education and experience, please tell me what FAR's allow me to refuse a perfectly safe operation, and do some more reading on MEL procedures, if any two defects interfere with each other it will be so stated.

 

[Say Again Over]

JustaNumber I wll retract my statement on the MEL as there can be minor conflicts when several items are defective however this isn't an issue in this case.

Amish RakeFight
Thanks for the information, assumed this story had more to it, but got tied up on this captains authority issue a bit, all good fun.