End ALPA - Begin War

[FO 4 Life]

lets see...you just named 3 pilot groups that did not go through a bankruptcy, one of which is in cargo and is not doing as well as it's fellow cargo ALPA carrier.

Explain to me how the ALPA cargo company is doing better than the non-ALPA carrier.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Explain to me how the ALPA cargo company is doing better than the non-ALPA carrier.

Sorry, I should have worded that better. What I meant is that some argue that the FDX contract is slightly better than the UPS contract, even though they are both at the top. The reality is that an ALPA contract is not better than an independent contract simply because it's ALPA, or vice-versa. There are ALPA contracts that are better than independents just like there are independent contracts better than ALPA ones. So, arguing that one should decertify his union because SWAPA, an independent, has a better contract without ALPA, is not a valid argument in my opinion.

 

[njcapt]

Great, then change the leadership, don't exchange government for anarchy just to show them who's boss.

Just like Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.

 

[N2264J]

You can call it "abandoning" if you wish...

I do. Was your term over when you started preparing and sending out resumes? Was your term over when you were filling out applications? Was your term over when you were interviewing? What kind of signal does it send to management when ALPA leadership is bailing during negotiations? Do you have any idea?

In the final analysis, you're not going to put your job on the line for a better contract. You're not going to stick you neck out for the profession if you need that unblemished record to get out. You're not going to rock the boat and risk management's retribution that might haunt you at the interview. It's a cronic problem at the "regionals." We had to work on this for five years leading up to the strike at Comair to overcome it and ALPA can thank the "lifers" for that. By the way, are there any lifers at AirTran?

The reason the smaller carriers don't have legacy type contracts is because so many are just making a low pass through there on their way to a dream job and don't want to make waves (a trait they glean from some ALPA "leadership") or said differently - when the flag goes up, the membership isn't there to press the issue.

That's my beef with ALPA Pollyannas like you.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That Comair strike in '01?

"Never happened."

Get a clue!

 

[PCL_128]

What kind of signal does it send to management when ALPA leadership is bailing during negotiations? Do you have any idea?

It sends the same signal that is sent whenever a regular rank-and-file pilot leaves: this place is such a festering sore of an airline that no one wants to stay.

In the final analysis, you're not going to put your job on the line for a better contract. You're not going to stick you neck out for the profession if you need that unblemished record to get out. You're not going to rock the boat and risk management's retribution that might haunt you at the interview.

You really don't know me. I was actually somewhat worried that my union activities would lead to problems in advancing, specifically because I had refused to hold back. My picture appeared in both local and national newspapers on at least a few occasions in connection with my ALPA work. I made no efforts to water down my trade unionism just to get ahead. You should have figured out by now that that's just not how I would be.

By the way, are there any lifers at AirTran?

Yeah, almost all of us. The difference? We don't take it as an insult when somebody calls us "lifers." The fact that you do points to an inferiority complex. You should really work on that.

 

[denny]

Don't even pretend that ALPA did not sell out on Age 65--and is already laying the groundwork for selling out on cabotage.

Excuse me. Isn't Age 65 part of the ICAO regs and the FAA is so far behind the rest of the world that no matter what any union did or said Congress was going to change that law?

Isn't English language comprehension part of the ICAO regs and now I have to update my license to meet international regs if I want to fly internationally - like to Toronto or Vancouver? Dang. ALPA sold me out on the English language requirement! They are so out of touch! Man the barricades!

I just have to wonder if professional aviators really don't read the news and keep up with their profession.

 

[waveflyer]

I do. Was your term over when you started preparing and sending out resumes? Was your term over when you were filling out applications? Was your term over when you were interviewing? What kind of signal does it send to management when ALPA leadership is bailing during negotiations? Do you have any idea?

In the final analysis, you're not going to put your job on the line for a better contract. You're not going to stick you neck out for the profession if you need that unblemished record to get out. You're not going to rock the boat and risk management's retribution that might haunt you at the interview. It's a cronic problem at the "regionals." We had to work on this for five years leading up to the strike at Comair to overcome it and ALPA can thank the "lifers" for that. By the way, are there any lifers at AirTran?

The reason the smaller carriers don't have legacy type contracts is because so many are just making a low pass through there on their way to a dream job and don't want to make waves (a trait they glean from some ALPA "leadership") or said differently - when the flag goes up, the membership isn't there to press the issue.

That's my beef with ALPA Pollyannas like you.

This is so true- and why scope was the absolute most immoral thing ALPA has ever allowed. Then allowed again. Then allowed some more.

and more

and more
and more



and some more

DALPA- we didn't learn any lessons- let's give the regionals 76 seaters too. Screw the young guys- they have no say in this.

The answer is to get involved in ALPA, not to destroy it. However, how do you get involved when you are not the one who gets to make the decision?

There are systemic problems w/ ALPA and they've failed to think long-term. This can only be solved by us coming together more- not by dividing up further. This is clear.

 

[waveflyer]

pcl you are the exception, not the rule. it's a valid point that pilots will be afraid to fully engage in unionism when they are looking to move on. Every commuter/regional pilot has seen this. Pilots leave just when they start to have a clue. It's insane to give away mainline flying to this group. They should be brought up to the mainline list, somehow, someway.

 

[PCL_128]

pcl you are the exception, not the rule. it's a valid point that pilots will be afraid to fully engage in unionism when they are looking to move on. Every commuter/regional pilot has seen this. Pilots leave just when they start to have a clue. It's insane to give away mainline flying to this group. They should be brought up to the mainline list, somehow, someway.

I agree completely with every word.

 

[freightdogfred]

They should be making more than you, if for no other reason than they're smarter than you!

You can't tell the difference between imputed income...and actual income. Take off the tinfoil hat for a second Einstein, and clue-up.

You can spin it any way you want, but a job in Hearndon is milk and honey. It's a about a year old, but you get the drift. I'll play the piano in a whorehouse before those ALPA clowns get my dues again.


Duane Woerth President $ 351,186 $ 136,744 $ 487,930
Jalmer Johnson General Manager $ 389,238 $ 4,532 $ 393,770

Bruce York Dir Representation $ 348,955 $ 35,617 $ 384,572
Jonathan Cohen Chief Counsel&dir, Legal $ 366,736 $ 3,213 $ 369,949

Don Skiados Director, Communications $ 306,635 $ 4,752 $ 311,387
Kevin Barnhurst Director, Finance $ 309,429 $ 1,729 $ 311,158

Paul Hallisay Director, Gov't Affairs $ 295,943 $ 6,195 $ 302,138
William Roberts Asst Dir Representation $ 287,391 $ 11,944 $ 299,335

Jim Johnson Managing Attorney, Legal $ 277,013 $ 19,828 $ 296,841
Stephen Crable Asst Dir Representation $ 266,107 $ 17,407 $ 283,514

Seth Rosen Director, Ipsc $ 236,488 $ 46,862 $ 283,350
Keith Hagy Director Eng & Air Safety $ 268,112 $ 4,410 $ 272,522

Jeffrey Small Sr Contr Admin/mec Coord $ 238,517 $ 32,145 $ 270,662
Gene Granof Managing Attorney, Legal $ 264,519 $ 4,443 $ 268,962

Liz Koby Managing Attorney $ 244,656 $ 18,328 $ 262,984
Jerry Anker Managing Attorney, Legal $ 261,212 $ 1,764 $ 262,976

Jim Wilson Asst Dir Representation $ 251,189 $ 11,582 $ 262,771
Dave Vance Director, Retir & Ins $ 257,048 $ 3,391 $ 260,439

Ana Mcahron-schulz Director,econ&fin Anal $ 211,946 $ 27,592 $ 239,538
Bob Christy Mgr, Economic&financial $ 211,096 $ 23,513 $ 234,609
Robert Nichols Sr Contr Admin/mec Coord $ 225,090 $ 6,477 $ 231,567
Patrick Brennaman Sr Contr Admin/mec Coord $ 226,442 $ 3,021 $ 229,463
Russ Bailey Senior Attorney $ 223,322 $ 2,825 $ 226,147
Stephen Nagrotsky Sr Contract Administrator $ 209,270 $ 7,402 $ 216,672
Russell Woody Sr Benefits Attorney $ 205,382 $ 10,019 $ 215,401
Richard Domholt Sr Contract Administrator $ 200,764 $ 12,612 $ 213,376
Charlie Murphy Director, It & Service $ 208,715 $ 1,047 $ 209,762
Marcus Migliore Senior Attorney $ 203,160 $ 852 $ 204,012
Clay Warner Senior Attorney $ 201,639 $ 1,900 $ 203,539
Bob Lipsey Pension Inv Coordinator $ 181,595 $ 18,251 $ 199,846
Art La Flamme Sr Representative $ 184,738 $ 11,416 $ 196,154
Steve Hodgson Sr Field Representative $ 180,438 $ 9,282 $ 189,720
John Schleder Sr Contract Administrator $ 183,983 $ 3,517 $ 187,500
Rob Plunkett Sr Contract Administrator $ 184,118 $ 1,422 $ 185,540
William Elliott Sr Contr Admin/mec Coord $ 180,241 $ 4,396 $ 184,637
Frank Voyack Sr Legislative Rep $ 180,939 $ 3,392 $ 184,331
Jeffrey Macdonald Supv, Collective Bargain $ 165,443 $ 17,421 $ 182,864
Brendan Kenny Sr Legislative Rep $ 181,339 $ 1,425 $ 182,764
Art Luby Sr Contract Administrator $ 175,308 $ 5,955 $ 181,263
Dennis Dolan First Vice-president $ 0 $ 180,874 $ 180,874
Jane Schraft Sr Contract Administrator $ 177,005 $ 3,222 $ 180,227
Betty Ginsburg Senior Attorney $ 177,944 $ 2,106 $ 180,050
Victoria Fortuna Sr Benefits Attorney $ 176,673 $ 2,769 $ 179,442
Jim Medley Mgr, Systems Development $ 174,138 $ 188 $ 174,326
David Holtzman Sr Contract Administrator $ 165,286 $ 8,232 $ 173,518
Suzanne Kalfus Senior Attorney $ 168,913 $ 2,692 $ 171,605
Gary Dinunno Supv,airline Pilot Mag $ 170,308 $ 1,000 $ 171,308
Kevin Fitzpatrick Sr. Contract Admin. $ 170,423 $ 0 $ 170,423
Richard Harrell Manager, It-dev Sup $ 168,590 $ 1,432 $ 170,022
Jerry Wright Mgr, Security&human Perf $ 166,031 $ 2,763 $ 168,794
James Connolly Field Representative $ 160,354 $ 5,300 $ 165,654
Joan (jody) Bettenburg Sr Contract Admin $ 164,226 $ 1,230 $ 165,456
Darrell Green Sr Contract Administrator $ 159,038 $ 4,844 $ 163,882
Bill Edmunds Human Performance Spec $ 157,924 $ 5,051 $ 162,975
Paul Rice Vice President Admin $ 0 $ 162,735 $ 162,735
Bob Striegel Sr Staff Engineer $ 155,205 $ 5,990 $ 161,195
Don Mcclure Air Safety Coordinator $ 147,790 $ 13,346 $ 161,136
John Dean Contract Administrator $ 147,398 $ 12,676 $ 160,074
Bill Phaneuf Sr Staff Engineer $ 155,108 $ 3,746 $ 158,854
Richard Pavel Field Representative $ 150,947 $ 7,078 $ 158,025
Chris Baum Mgr, Accident Inv $ 154,712 $ 1,843 $ 156,555
Christopher Beebe Vice President Finance $ 0 $ 155,360 $ 155,360
Everett Barber Contract Administrator $ 147,946 $ 6,640 $ 154,586
Jim Lobsenz Senior Attorney $ 152,105 $ 2,146 $ 154,251
Margarita Lorenzetti Manager, Finance & Acct $ 151,842 $ 434 $ 152,276
John Wells Attorney $ 143,135 $ 6,504 $ 149,639
Sandra Pusey Supv, Product Support $ 149,518 $ 0 $ 149,518
David Krieger Lead Financial Analyst $ 138,125 $ 11,299 $ 149,424
Andrew Shostack Contract Administrator $ 143,133 $ 4,625 $ 147,758
Charlie Bergman Mgr, Air Safety & Ops $ 142,968 $ 4,282 $ 147,250
Kelly Collie Emp Dev & Comm Coord $ 143,850 $ 2,207 $ 146,057
Lee Veid Supervisor, Applications $ 145,607 $ 0 $ 145,607
Terry Saturday Sr Contr Administrator $ 137,865 $ 7,726 $ 145,591
Jack Parrack Enrolled Actuary $ 141,749 $ 3,146 $ 144,895
Ken Cooper Asst Dir Representation $ 131,651 $ 11,847 $ 143,498
Marie Schwartz Manager, Communications $ 137,492 $ 5,191 $ 142,683
Joan Gallahan Mgr, Memb & Council Srvs $ 142,236 $ 309 $ 142,545
Bill Despins Lead Economic Analyst $ 128,759 $ 13,619 $ 142,378
Percy Toop Contract Administrator $ 127,122 $ 13,873 $ 140,995
Jan Steenblik Technical Editor $ 136,676 $ 3,246 $ 139,922
David Hannah Contract Administrator $ 133,971 $ 4,641 $ 138,612
Peter Janhunen Manager, Communications $ 136,746 $ 1,485 $ 138,231
Linda Rafii Sr Benefits Specialist $ 132,763 $ 5,334 $ 138,097
Trai Nguyen Sr Network Integrator $ 135,624 $ 969 $ 136,593
Brent Milligan Enrolled Actuary $ 130,764 $ 5,517 $ 136,281
Kelly Hardy Sr Gov Affairs Spec $ 135,836 $ 0 $ 135,836
Mike Cranford Sr Systems Integrator $ 135,680 $ 0 $ 135,680
Helen Wong-scruggs Systems Analyst $ 135,544 $ 0 $ 135,544
John Mazor Sr. Communications Spec $ 135,236 $ 67 $ 135,303
Chris Mccarthy Manager, It Op&services $ 131,905 $ 300 $ 132,205
Joe Bracken Sr Staff Engineer $ 130,442 $ 1,588 $ 132,030
Rod Gardner Supv, Network Sys&ser $ 130,954 $ 660 $ 131,614
Amy Alperi Lead Economic Analyst $ 128,960 $ 1,994 $ 130,954
Marcia Eubanks Lead Economic Analyst $ 118,811 $ 11,873 $ 130,684
Michael Huhn Sr Accident Inv Spec $ 129,091 $ 1,335 $ 130,426
Wayne Klocke Contract Administrator $ 129,277 $ 1,098 $ 130,375
Daniel Froehlich Contract Administrator $ 123,751 $ 4,941 $ 128,692
James Andresakes Sr Security Specialist $ 126,867 $ 1,798 $ 128,665
John Gaiser Sr Benefits Specialist $ 126,412 $ 0 $ 126,412
Neal Davis Contract Administrator $ 121,703 $ 4,612 $ 126,315
Hong Lee Sr Data Admin Analyst $ 125,866 $ 0 $ 125,866
Cynthia Holloway Hr Administrator $ 125,843 $ 0 $ 125,843
Bert Leger Contract Administrator $ 108,952 $ 15,943 $ 124,895
Tom Kilpatrick Contract Administrator $ 119,483 $ 4,687 $ 124,170
Michael Welsh Contract Administrator $ 122,438 $ 1,620 $ 124,058
Bob Hall Staff Engineer $ 122,236 $ 1,681 $ 123,917
Richard Parker Analyst/programmer $ 123,814 $ 0 $ 123,814
Jan Briel Director, Human Resources $ 122,209 $ 904 $ 123,113
Elaine Grittner Sr Mec Benefits Spec $ 122,558 $ 382 $ 122,940
Janie Miller Systems Analyst $ 121,542 $ 224 $ 121,766
Steve Corrie Sr Staff Engineer $ 119,131 $ 2,102 $ 121,233
Paul Girdany Contract Administrator $ 117,047 $ 2,964 $ 120,011
Julie Glass Attorney $ 119,022 $ 766 $ 119,788
Andrea Griffith Supervisor, Accounting $ 119,411 $ 57 $ 119,468
Daniel Orfield Contract Administrator $ 116,354 $ 2,966 $ 119,320
Marta Wagner Attorney $ 118,616 $ 523 $ 119,139
Lisa Noyes Supervisor,pub Services $ 118,165 $ 130 $ 118,295
Lap Nguyen Systems Analyst $ 117,041 $ 0 $ 117,041
Mark Kovach Supv General Accounting $ 114,654 $ 0 $ 114,654
Christopher Brown Contract Administrator $ 111,306 $ 2,486 $ 113,792
Mike Carney Manager, Real Estate $ 112,568 $ 1,142 $ 113,710
Tina Savopoulos Systems Analyst $ 113,287 $ 0 $ 113,287
William Dengler Sr Support Serv Analyst $ 113,000 $ 0 $ 113,000
Mark Angolia Comm Production Spec $ 99,747 $ 13,037 $ 112,784
Anthony Brown Systems Analyst $ 112,399 $ 0 $ 112,399
Rebecca Rong Analyst/programmer $ 111,961 $ 99 $ 112,060
Pam Quayle Supv, Meeting Planning $ 110,350 $ 785 $ 111,135
Pierre Huggins Staff Engineer $ 109,390 $ 1,082 $ 110,472
Rick Kessel Staff Engineer $ 109,653 $ 644 $ 110,297
Sherry Taylor Benefits Specialist $ 106,174 $ 2,862 $ 109,036
Andrew Brenner Contract Administrator $ 105,017 $ 3,481 $ 108,498
Jan Redden Mgr, Gov Bodies Support $ 107,392 $ 127 $ 107,519
Tyler Home Supv Membership Services $ 106,865 $ 225 $ 107,090
Karen Browne-fleck Sr Benefits Specialist $ 92,338 $ 14,375 $ 106,713
Mark Cato Staff Engineer $ 101,968 $ 4,243 $ 106,211
Karen Madkour Travel Specialist $ 104,774 $ 1,203 $ 105,977
Jennifer Crichton Supervisor, Accounting $ 105,115 $ 0 $ 105,115
Eric Iverson Contract Administrator $ 101,111 $ 3,862 $ 104,973
Troy Englert Sr Economic Analyst $ 103,172 $ 1,637 $ 104,809
Melanie Howey Supervisor Mec/lec $ 101,426 $ 2,954 $ 104,380
Blair Donovan Operations Analyst $ 104,094 $ 224 $ 104,318
Michael Fredericks Security Specialist $ 102,533 $ 1,664 $ 104,197
Bill Ford Design/production Editor $ 103,380 $ 679 $ 104,059
Corey Stephens Staff Engineer $ 101,265 $ 2,580 $ 103,845
James Moody Sr Communications Spec $ 103,777 $ 0 $ 103,777
Richard Bartsch Sys Integrator/analyst $ 98,975 $ 3,888 $ 102,863
Daniel Ryan Systems Integrator $ 101,563 $ 243 $ 101,806
Biscuit Gobezie Analyst/programmer $ 101,604 $ 0 $ 101,604
Kevin Comstock Staff Engineer $ 99,426 $ 1,927 $ 101,353
Clinton Burner Systems Integrator $ 100,448 $ 370 $ 100,818
and the list goes on............... and on

 

[N2264J]

There are a few stunning things that ALPA does not do well. But rather than blame the "vast large jet conspiracy" for them, as you do...

You want to know how broken ALPA is? There are nine alter ego airlines at DCI now. Several of them are not even ALPA carriers. Would you like to take this opportunity to say a few words on behalf of ALPA's alter ego policy? Anything? Anything at all?

And the deepest cut of all is not only did ALPA allow it, they engineered it.

Why? The Delta MEC knows that a dollar is a dollar at Delta Inc. and if they can get a dollar at the Comair pilots expense, that's a dollar the Delta pilots won't have to give up in their agreement. If Delta can contract out the flying at a cheaper rate than Comair can fly it, that's money the DMEC can retain in their own contract. Whether or not the flying goes outside the union is immaterial to our "union brothers."

Surely you're familiar with this because the NWA MEC got a $15 million bargaining credit for driving 40 growth aircraft away from Pinnacle and Mesaba. This permits someone else to carry the overhead of the airplanes (not NWA) but results in a couple hundred regional ALPA brand pilots not making captain, not getting better lines, not getting off reserve, not being hired etc. This theft can be quantified in dollars, to the penny, that's not realized by Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots but ends up at the disposal of the Northwest MEC.

In fact, the Delta pilots underbid my old CL-700 rate, once the best in the business, not because they had any expectation of recapturing that flying but to drive the costs down at Comair.

In other words, Comair, Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have been whipsawed by their own union.

 

[N2264J]

That Comair strike in '01? "Never happened." Get a clue!

We raised the bar - not just pulling up all the smaller carriers around us but our agreement would have buttressed the legacy contracts above us as well. Everyone would have benefited from it had 9-11 not happened 6 months later. Pattern bargaining is what ALPA pilot groups are supposed to do, yes?

ALPA's support is owed. That's what we pay dues for. Stop trying to lay this guilt trip on us as if Comair is some kind of burden to the association.

Occam's Razor: All things being equal, a simpleton.

 

[Bringupthebird]

You have to question why ALPA agreed to represent regional airlines to begin with. Perhaps they never saw the RJ coming. But is that reason enough to begin dismantling an organization that's done alot more good than bad in 75 years?

And to think that breaking up ALPA will result in the individual airlines getting more, well that's a pretty hefty bet. The smaller unions will be hard-pressed to develop any real working relationship with management - they lack the leverage. When companies start-up, they often appear employee friendly because they need employee involvement to fuel incredible growth. When it matures, the airline changes it's tune and yet another tale of loyalty-turned-betrayal and disillusionment is told.

 

[weasel_lips]

ALPA is a joke. Only interested in dues money.