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EJA/Hawker Midair w/ Glider....Everyone OK - Merged!

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Cudos to the crew!

I know Annette well, she is one stud-ette let me tell you. I believe she's been with us about 9 years. I'd fly in the back of her plane anytime!:)

Cush
 
RTRHD said:
I would think part of the attraction of piloting a glider is the peace and quite. Now you have that radio blaring away. It just my opinion GR we don’t have to fight about this. But what’s next sticking transponders up skydivers butts.
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I'm not fighting about anything here. My point is...some people will purposely turn off the radio (is so equipped) because they dont have to or are not required to listen to it. Soaring must be fun (never done it myself) but if you could listen to a controller that would be calling traffic out, woldnt that be the sensible thing to do? Just my 2 cents worth.

As for your skydiver thing.....we all know that there are notams that cover skydivers, gliders and hot air balloons in specific areas. Guess it's a chance yah take though.

Nevermind transponders for skydivers in the a$$.....it's a matter of time before we see terrorists with TNT in that same area too.
 
GoingHot said:
Yes, I know they met at 16k. I was just wondering about glider flights in IFR territory, and if they check in with approach/center to let them know what they're doing. After a very close call some years ago, I always check in with ATC, no matter how busy they are. That incident was with a glider, and I was in an AH-1. Another 50 feet and it would have been ugly.

Just last week, ATC may have saved me from a mid air with a crop duster. It was 3 miles in haze and they had no altitude readout on him. He poped out of the haze right in front of me.
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It's been some time since I flew gliders but from what I remember, they use windows for high altitude flights and advise ATC 24 hours in advance so a NOTAM can be issued. In most cases, they have battery operated transponders these days. Glass ships are real hard to pick up on radar and if you fly in the Carson City/Minden/Reno area, you'd be well advised to keep your eyes pealed as there are a lot of them there.
 
Steve said:
I know you guys have your checklists to run but collision avoidance is the responsibility of all pilots (when in vmc). Lets not start putting all the blame on the glider pilot.
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All airplanes have checklists. If pilots decide to omit them for one reason or another, that's bad decision making.

Your profile shows you may not have any high-performance airplane time, so let me make the following generality: Light airplanes are almost impossible to see from high-performance airplanes. I don't know why that is, it just is.

I can see other traffic fine while be-bopping in a Cessna; but put me in a jet and that same type traffic just can't be seen.

I'm not going to pin the blame on the glider pilot, but I will pin the blame on the entire glider industry. Time for them to step up to the aviation safety plate like the rest of us.

Before some glider truly takes out an airplane.

Kudos to the member here who already uses a xpdr in their glider.

C
 
727gm said:
Great airmanship, agreed. The glorious Hawker pulls through, again.

Normal run-of-the-mill airmanship to see and avoid the glider in the first place, thereby avoiding demonstration of great airmanship.

Noticed(in 1st post) that the sheriff assumed the glider had hit the jet. Not probable: with the airspeed differential, the glider was in front of the Hawker (in view, in the front windscreen). The larger the speed differential, the narrower the cone of airspace in directly in front of the faster aircraft the slower ship will be located in.

There were two pilots in the jet, one should be looking out in VFR conditions below 18000 especially outside of Class B airspace. The glider also has the right-of-way(not to say a glider would crash rather than yield) over powered aircraft.

There is a major problem today with too much head-down button-pushing, and an assumption that if the TCAS is clear, there's no need to look outside.

Most gliders have no electrical system and no place to put an expensive TCAS system. A mode-C transponder would be nice, and they ARE getting smaller. Gliders carry no fuel, so can stay up far longer than a continuously-replying transponder's battery could last. Many have no nav or com radios. Many have no oxygen, and are therefore below 14000/12500 feet. Typically those above 14000 are better outfitted, with radios, GPS, 0xy, and (possibly) a transponder. Those above 18000 feet will normally be in a "wave window", a letter-of-agreement defined box that ATC will not be letting any other traffic into (very small defined area worked out for Wave flights), so not a problem for airplanes in Class A airspace.

They DO have great visibility. I've seen many jets, 210's, Bonanzas, etc, that I don't think ever saw me, but the glider doesn't have a cockpit full of "Attractive Nuisances" to detract from the job of seeing-and-avoiding.
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There is too much head down and button pushing and relying on TCAS as you say. YOU are then assuming that the crew was pushing buttons and caused this accident....is that what you are implying? And then you go on with your speech that one pilot should be on the lookout for traffic below 18000.....bla bla bla.....like we all dont know that already and again looks like your assuming that nobody was looking for traffic. How do you know that both pilots were not looking out the window for possible traffic.....how do you know that the glider pilot wasnt looking for traffic at the time? Funny how you said that we shouldnt place blame on the glider pilot but here you are second guessing the actions of the Hawker crew and indirectly placing blame on them as you assume that they were not looking out the window. Thats kinda effed up.
 
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No words

notaNJApilot said:
They landed this!!!!
Best pictures I've seen.
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/007288.html
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Jaw dropping pictures. A must see. *****'s.

Guitar Rocker said:
Thats kinda effed up.
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What is effed up is the FAR's are crafted in such a way (or have to be...thanks lawyers) that it is never nobody's fault. See and avoid. I agree to place blame now is premature, and to speculate is for the ignorant. But, we all know who will be found at fault from a legal perspective.

toughguy 727gm said:
Great airmanship, agreed. The glorious Hawker pulls through, again.

Normal run-of-the-mill airmanship to see and avoid the glider in the first place, thereby avoiding demonstration of great airmanship.
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Abrasive but true...?
 
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Thats it

gunfyter said:
I am not sure but I think the left engine may have been failed as well as a result of the collision.
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That settles it. These pilots are heroes for saving the day and landing that jet safely. Call Warren and have him call Mikey Bloomberg. They deserve a ticker tape parade.
 
Jetz said:
That settles it. These pilots are heroes for saving the day and landing that jet safely. Call Warren and have him call Mikey Bloomberg. They deserve a ticker tape parade.
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Not sure what you are trying to say, but with all of the bad press pilots usually get (drunk pilots, pilots sliding thru fences, pilots taking off on wrong runway, etc) it is nice to see that some people actually appreciate it when the pilots "save the day".
 
Said what I meant

skiandsurf said:
Not sure what you are trying to say, but with all of the bad press pilots usually get (drunk pilots, pilots sliding thru fences, pilots taking off on wrong runway, etc) it is nice to see that some people actually appreciate it when the pilots "save the day".
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May shock you skiandsurf, although I do not understand why, that I said what I meant. After looking at those pictures..I mean hearing the story was enough for me to say that crew pulled off an amazing feat by landing that jet after a midair, period. Then after having seen the news video and the seeing these pictures on someone's blog, that crew needs to get some serious public KUDOS. Yea, yea, they did their job, they are highly trained and skilled. YES! Who can train for THIS>? Above and beyond, therefore worthy of praise.

Absolutely correct that Pilots do not get proper credit especially in these situations. That is the media culture in this country They live for destruction and doom and politicize everything to suit their slanted views. Good news in a time when the "other party" rules the country is underreported, bad news is THE headline dujour. NO wonder so many people feel like the apocolypse is just around the corner...its all they hear about on the mainstream media. Anyway....

Again, what a great job NJ crew!
 
gunfyter said:
I am not sure but I think the left engine may have been failed as well as a result of the collision.
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I cant help but say it again after seeing these pictures....Annette and to your co-pilot....you guys did one hell of a job.
 
Ntsb

Guitar rocker said:
Guess we will wait and see what the official word from the NTSB is though.
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Let me ask you Rocker and others how well you think the NTSB does their job determining probable cause in general. I think they do an exceptional job.

Wonder if they can re-create what the crew and the glider pilot actually saw. What will they say was the probable cause in this case?
 
How many times have you been in a jet and ATC advises an RJ 10 o'clock and 6 miles crossing left to right and you never even saw it?
 
Dr Pokenhiemer said:
How many times have you been in a jet and ATC advises an RJ 10 o'clock and 6 miles crossing left to right and you never even saw it?
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With my eyes, hardly ever. With my TCAS 98% of the time.
 

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