EJA/Hawker Midair w/ Glider....Everyone OK - Merged!

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Wish I had TCAS!!

 

[skiandsurf]

Wish I had TCAS!!

While watching the news today in Los Angeles, they mentioned that 20 years ago today was the midair between the piper and Aeromexico over Cerritos. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was flight instructing at Meadowlark Airport (Huntington Beach) and saw the smoke out in the distance.

This was the onset of TCAS.

 

[Smellycat]

I'll never forget the video from the ground of that 727 spinning on fire...or maybe that was a different accident. Aero mex was a DC-9..??

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2001/sp0101.html

 

[FLYLOW22]

I'll never forget the video from the ground of that 727 spinning on fire...or maybe that was a different accident. Aero mex was a DC-9..??

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2001/sp0101.html

I think you might be thinking of the PSA 727 accident on 25 Sept. 1978.

This is waht happens when you mix a 727 and a C-172.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/psa182/photo.shtml

 

[Jetz]

What could have happened

I think you might be thinking of the PSA 727 accident on 25 Sept. 1978.

This is waht happens when you mix a 727 and a C-172.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/psa182/photo.shtml

I too remember the PSA accident.

I'm still shaking my head in amazement at how LUCKY this NJ crew was! What a life changing event to have this happen and to walk away, get stitches and live to praise Almighty God another day!

Professionalism and bravery shown by this crew of EJA879 was extraordinary!

 

[Guitar rocker]

How many times have you been in a jet and ATC advises an RJ 10 o'clock and 6 miles crossing left to right and you never even saw it?

Very good point.

 

[JEEPPLR]

A few thoughts here:

Gliders are small, especially at the speed an 800XP travels.
They are generally painted white.
The 800XP was descending so glider would be seen with the ground as the backdrop.
There are fires burning in the area causing a haze the cover the ground helping the glider to be even harder to see.

Just my experiences from flying out there during fire season but it can be hard to see an airplane in those conditions.

 

[RNObased]

I'll answer this question. I have a ton of time flying gliders where this happened. The glider pilot was flying in a normal area for glider ops. There is a ton of glider flying in that area of the carrson valley. It is the soaring capital of the world. That is where the glider world altitude record was set. Most times of the year there is standing box that allows us to go up to FL600. I've been up to FL380 in a glider there. The glider I fly has a transponder and a radio. I talk to ATC, but as long as they stay in the box the are not required to talk to anyone. 16000ft in that area is low for a glider. Most pilots can get up there on a day with weak thermals.

And I have a ton of time flying jets where this happened. There is so much room in that area the gliders and jets could be seperated. This could have been a 737 full of pax just as easy as 800xp with 3 pax, now if that would have happened it would have been ugly.

If the reports on this web site are true and the glider had a transponder, but didn't have it on, well I have huge issues with that. If you have the equipment run it. I'm not saying this is fact, just heresay on this site.

Also below 18,000 is a very time in a jet. Checklist to be run, freq changes, etc.

You watch, changes are coming and I bet the glider guys won't like it.

 

[Peanut gallery]

One thing is for sure....

The plane looks like it will fly again....but I bet it will need two new pilot seat covers. Nice job by the crew.

 

[ultrarunner]

PSA flight 182 in 1978(ish).

A PSA 727 hit a C-172 and killed everyone in mboth airplanes plus a few on the ground.

That one is the reason we have TCAS today.

When a mid-air between a glider and an airliner kills a few hundred, THEN there will be action. But not before, IMO.

 

[ultrarunner]

They landed this!!!!
Best pictures I've seen.
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/007288.html

It quickly became the FO's leg, if it wasn't already. Holy $hit!

 

[ultrarunner]

Glider transponders, in case anyone is curious:

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm

That link pretty much throw's 727gm's argument out the window!

 

[ultrarunner]

I cant help but say it again after seeing these pictures....Annette and to your co-pilot....you guys did one hell of a job.

I would agree...

...btw, how long did it take dispatch to get you a new ship so you could finish your tour?

 

[RNObased]

Great airmanship, agreed. The glorious Hawker pulls through, again.

Normal run-of-the-mill airmanship to see and avoid the glider in the first place, thereby avoiding demonstration of great airmanship.

Noticed(in 1st post) that the sheriff assumed the glider had hit the jet. Not probable: with the airspeed differential, the glider was in front of the Hawker (in view, in the front windscreen). The larger the speed differential, the narrower the cone of airspace in directly in front of the faster aircraft the slower ship will be located in.

There were two pilots in the jet, one should be looking out in VFR conditions below 18000 especially outside of Class B airspace. The glider also has the right-of-way(not to say a glider would crash rather than yield) over powered aircraft.

There is a major problem today with too much head-down button-pushing, and an assumption that if the TCAS is clear, there's no need to look outside.

Most gliders have no electrical system and no place to put an expensive TCAS system. A mode-C transponder would be nice, and they ARE getting smaller. Gliders carry no fuel, so can stay up far longer than a continuously-replying transponder's battery could last. Many have no nav or com radios. Many have no oxygen, and are therefore below 14000/12500 feet. Typically those above 14000 are better outfitted, with radios, GPS, 0xy, and (possibly) a transponder. Those above 18000 feet will normally be in a "wave window", a letter-of-agreement defined box that ATC will not be letting any other traffic into (very small defined area worked out for Wave flights), so not a problem for airplanes in Class A airspace.

They DO have great visibility. I've seen many jets, 210's, Bonanzas, etc, that I don't think ever saw me, but the glider doesn't have a cockpit full of "Attractive Nuisances" to detract from the job of seeing-and-avoiding.

You know 727, I read you post 3 times before I responed and do you think you could be a less bias??? I realize YOU see every airplane there is to see within 10nm miles of YOU. While the rest of us poor slops barely get by and are lucky if we see another plane when it is pointed out to us by ATC.

If you do have the jet time you claim you do, then you know that 16,000 is a busy time in a jet. Approach checks etc.

Also from what I have heard the capt saw the glider, it was just too late.
Maybe it is time the gliders put in at least one "Attractive Nuisance" ie; a transponder.

 

[cosmotheassman]

How long will it be before transponders are required in gliders now? tick tock

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Nice job everyone! Hard to believe not too long ago, there were people who'd say we weren't worth anything.

 

[Pervis]

Great airmanship, agreed. The glorious Hawker pulls through, again.

Normal run-of-the-mill airmanship to see and avoid the glider in the first place, thereby avoiding demonstration of great airmanship."

We used to play in a number of war game scenarios as both the good and bad guys in Europe. AWACs would call our "bandits", and even when the controllers were directing our eyes at the threat, usually F15s and F16s, it was difficult at best to pick them out, especially the F16s. Even if ATC informed the crew during the descent of glider activity in the area, that small of a target at relatively high altitude would be nearly impossible to see at 300 kts.

Sometimes two objects find themselves in the same space through little or no fault of those directly involved. The superior airmanship of the Hawker crew and the glider pilots' skill and ability to prepare and execute the bail out while no doubt wildly out of control are what saved the day. Transponder equipment goes a long way in reducing the chances of these events, especially if TCAS is involved in at least one of those aircraft. Small price to pay, considering the damage done and possible if not probable fatalities in most midair collisions.

 

[LJ45]

if they had a transponder is should have been on!

c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

 

[Smellycat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYzqGhDkXk0

This is prolly the view from Carson City tower (if there was one.)

 

[RNObased]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYzqGhDkXk0

This is prolly the view from Carson City tower (if there was one.)

No Smelly Cat, no even close. First of all Carson City doesn't have a tower and secondly that is from a 800 that had a gear up landing in LAS oh around 6 or 7 years ago.