EJA/Hawker Midair w/ Glider....Everyone OK - Merged!

[G4G5]

I always knew that a glider was faster then a Hawker. Now I have proof.

 

[Wantfrys]

was wondering if they landed on the runway or the grass on the side? What would most people elect to do? I would think very hard about landing in the grass ,if it was flat, since you might keep the sparks from the fuel.

 

[Steve]

Glider drivers, when above 18,000, are you required to be on an IFR flight plan? Also, do you use flight following?

No IFR flight plan when above 18,000 since only a few gliders exist that are ifr capable. ATC will usually accommodate requests into the class A, especially when arrangements are made prior to the proposed flight. The controller will usually give you a block of airspace (12,000-15,000) and ask for you to report anytime exiting that block. Not sure if the glider in the accident had a transponder but I’m guessing no since most don’t and aren’t required to. This usually makes it hard for the controller to see them on radar considering most of the new high performance ships are fiberglass. I've had more than one close call in Upstate NY (the mecca of glider flying) with RJ's. Close enough to see the DC headset on the FO and his head down in the cockpit. I know you guys have your checklists to run but collision avoidance is the responsibility of all pilots (when in vmc). Lets not start putting all the blame on the glider pilot.

 

[C680]

Let the NTSB do their job.

... but collision avoidance is the responsibility of all pilots (when in vmc). Lets not start putting all the blame on the glider pilot.

Let's see...and avoid...and who had the right of way. Cannot argue this, so lets not start placing blame.

This is still the time to heap praise and credit to the flight crew of the NetJets bird for their superb airmanship.

 

[Steve]

was wondering if they landed on the runway or the grass on the side? What would most people elect to do? I would think very hard about landing in the grass ,if it was flat, since you might keep the sparks from the fuel.

Avbug did a great write up a while back about this topic. Hopefully he will write in. The jist of it was that most aircraft will be far more damaged from landing on grass then a paved runway. The chance of losing controll or digging the nose in on grass is also much higher. Pilots gear up airplanes a few times a week in the US alone and walk away from it after all. Can't be that dangerous on a paved runway.

 

[acaTerry]

was wondering if they landed on the runway or the grass on the side? What would most people elect to do? I would think very hard about landing in the grass ,if it was flat, since you might keep the sparks from the fuel.

With a damaged jet that weighs over 18,000 lbs? At jet approach speeds (which I am sure she incresed due to airframe damage)? Yer kidding right?

 

[Wantfrys]

I know that the airplane was heavly damaged and it would not be smart for this example, but I was wondering how many other people in other examples would be thinking of the grass.
Thanks steve for the reply i found avbugs thread and he has good points as always.
Again try not to bash me I was just asking a question that i think other people would think of in the heat of the moment.

 

[h25b]

With a damaged jet that weighs over 18,000 lbs? At jet approach speeds (which I am sure she incresed due to airframe damage)? Yer kidding right?

The Hawkers I believe have a stringer running the length of the underneath of the airplane that essentially makes a belly landing a non-event (structurally speaking)... I believe the checklist calls for a gear-up landing in the event of NWS misalignment. So from an engineering standpoint they don't seem too concerned about belly landings. They used to show a video of one doing a gear up landing in recurrent.

 

[Steve]

I know that the airplane was heavly damaged and it would not be smart for this example, but I was wondering how many other people in other examples would be thinking of the grass.
Thanks steve for the reply i found avbugs thread and he has good points as always.
Again try not to bash me I was just asking a question that i think other people would think of in the heat of the moment.

Sorry if it came off as a bash. It was not meant that way at all. I used to think that grass would be a good idea incase of a stuck gear in the light twins I fly mostly. I've since come to the personal conclusion that if a aircraft is not designed to be operated on grass using it for the first time in an emergency, gear or no gear, is probibly not a good idea.

 

[cjdriver]

The Hawker has a keel, designed to be used for a belly landing, and can be removed for repair. We actually got to do a gear up landing in the sim, and it was quite realistic, shook the sim pretty good. You land gear up when you can't get the NWS centered so you don't depart the runway on landing. Also, the Hawker is a tank. I think one took a SAM in Africa once and made it down OK. There might be some pictures of it out there somewhere.

 

[CL60]

Narrative on referenced incident

The Hawker has a keel, designed to be used for a belly landing, and can be removed for repair. We actually got to do a gear up landing in the sim, and it was quite realistic, shook the sim pretty good. You land gear up when you can't get the NWS centered so you don't depart the runway on landing. Also, the Hawker is a tank. I think one took a SAM in Africa once and made it down OK. There might be some pictures of it out there somewhere.

According to the Aviation Safety Network, a service of the FSF.

Narrative:
A BAe-125 owned by the Botswana Government was carrying the President of Botswana, J.K. Quett Masire, and his staff to a meeting in Luanda. An Angolan MiG-23 Flogger pilot fired two R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) missiles at the plane. One missile hit the no. 2 engine, causing it to fall off the aircraft. The second missile then hit the falling engine. The captain of the business jet was incapicated when the cabin steward was blown forward, onto him. The co-pilot made a succesful emergency landing on a bush strip at Cutio Bie.

 

[FL420]

Sidenote:

I had a skipper once who landed an F-4 gear up on the lakebed at Edwards AFB. He said if he had to do it over again, he wouldn't.

 

[RTRHD]

To the Crew of N879QS:

Great Job to both of you. You turned what should have been a disaster into an example of exemplary airmanship.

Thank You
RTRHD

 

[RTRHD]

And I second, thank goodness it was a Hawker.

 

[RNObased]

I know you guys have your checklists to run but collision avoidance is the responsibility of all pilots (when in vmc). Lets not start putting all the blame on the glider pilot.

Ok Stevie,

With all the moutains around the area where this happened did the glilder choose to be in a area known to have a lot of commerical jet traffic. There are many other areas around the area to glide. That area is a normal arrival route for RNO, everyone knows it that is from the area.

It is high time that anytime you want to go over 10000ft you have a transponder on.

 

[Fozzy]

RNO
You are being nice. Any object that is flying at an altitude of greater than 100 (yes that is one hundred) feet needs to have a operating mode C or better transponder. I would love to see this kind of push from the FAA/NTSB. I would also love to let APOA know that I would drop my membership over this if they fought it.

But it will never happen, that is untill it takes out a full 737,, then maybe we will see a change.

 

[niteflyr]

I know nothing about gliders, but would like to throw out some kudos to the glider pilot as well for getting out of this in one piece as well.

And a definite job well done by the Hawker crew. Those pics made my stomach turn just looking at them. Unbelievable job on landing that thing.

 

[FLYLOW22]

RNO
You are being nice. Any object that is flying at an altitude of greater than 100 (yes that is one hundred) feet needs to have a operating mode C or better transponder. I would love to see this kind of push from the FAA/NTSB. I would also love to let APOA know that I would drop my membership over this if they fought it.

But it will never happen, that is untill it takes out a full 737,, then maybe we will see a change.

PSA flight 182 in 1978(ish).

A PSA 727 hit a C-172 and killed everyone in mboth airplanes plus a few on the ground.

A northwest DC-9 hit a small Piper aircraft and scattered it's pieces over a trailer park (1980's)

Folks... all of this is history repeating itself.

How many more times do we have to play it all over again?

It's voo ja de... all over again.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

this will all disappear...

What happened to the first thread? Just magically disappeared...like this one probably will.

Didn't you see Conspiracy Theory ? Space Shuttle crashes are linked to earthquakes. Last time the Shuttle blew up, one of our planes was destroyed and the crew did a hero's job of saving everyone, but it was never news. It got displaced Gary Condit style. Now all eyes are on Hurricane Ernesto; that'll determine if the Shuttle is launched. Personally, you couldn't get me on that thing for a million bucks; Tang or no Tang. But, it all makes perfect sense.

Stay tuned

 

[FLYLOW22]

I know nothing about gliders, but would like to throw out some kudos to the glider pilot as well for getting out of this in one piece as well.

And a definite job well done by the Hawker crew. Those pics made my stomach turn just looking at them. Unbelievable job on landing that thing.

Sounds like she did it after being smacked in the face with several peices of glass and metal that used to be the instrument panel. I bet if they had any instruments, their function was unreliable.

I am sensing some awesome stick n rudder here guys. It's amazing nothing hit the tail or other vitals spinning back there.