EJA/Hawker Midair w/ Glider....Everyone OK - Merged!

[NJA bound]

Yep, congrats to the crew, awesome job.

 

[XJAVRO]

Ok Stevie,

With all the moutains around the area where this happened did the glilder choose to be in a area known to have a lot of commerical jet traffic. There are many other areas around the area to glide. That area is a normal arrival route for RNO, everyone knows it that is from the area.

It is high time that anytime you want to go over 10000ft you have a transponder on.

I'll answer this question. I have a ton of time flying gliders where this happened. The glider pilot was flying in a normal area for glider ops. There is a ton of glider flying in that area of the carrson valley. It is the soaring capital of the world. That is where the glider world altitude record was set. Most times of the year there is standing box that allows us to go up to FL600. I've been up to FL380 in a glider there. The glider I fly has a transponder and a radio. I talk to ATC, but as long as they stay in the box the are not required to talk to anyone. 16000ft in that area is low for a glider. Most pilots can get up there on a day with weak thermals.

 

[Jetz]

Huh?

Didn't you see Conspiracy Theory ? Space Shuttle crashes are linked to earthquakes. Last time the Shuttle blew up, one of our planes was destroyed and the crew did a hero's job of saving everyone, but it was never news.

What r u talking about? Not the one that became a piece of texas toast at the end of the short runway. (?)

 

[C680]

Leakey

What r u talking about? Not the one that became a piece of texas toast at the end of the short runway. (?)

Maybe he refers to the Leakey, Tx accident.

 

[Guitar rocker]

I'll answer this question. I have a ton of time flying gliders where this happened. The glider pilot was flying in a normal area for glider ops. There is a ton of glider flying in that area of the carrson valley. It is the soaring capital of the world. That is where the glider world altitude record was set. Most times of the year there is standing box that allows us to go up to FL600. I've been up to FL380 in a glider there. The glider I fly has a transponder and a radio. I talk to ATC, but as long as they stay in the box the are not required to talk to anyone. 16000ft in that area is low for a glider. Most pilots can get up there on a day with weak thermals.

But perhaps even if the gliders folks stay in the "box," a radio and transponder are a small price to pay in order to enhance the safety of that type of operation. I know some would be up in arms over new regulations that would require a radio and transponder for gliders, but I wonder if the glider pilot involved will be getting those two items for his next glider?

To the crew of the hawker...you guys did an excellent job.

 

[RTRHD]

But perhaps even if the gliders folks stay in the "box," a radio and transponder are a small price to pay in order to enhance the safety of that type of operation. I know some would be up in arms over new regulations that would require a radio and transponder for gliders, but I wonder if the glider pilot involved will be getting those two items for his next glider?

To the crew of the hawker...you guys did an excellent job.

I can see a transponder, but wouldn’t a radio defeat the whole purpose of going soaring. But I am not a glider pilot and I have enough time with no power. And that helicopter Schweitzer makes does not glide worth a $hit. LOL:laugh:

 

[727gm]

Great airmanship, agreed. The glorious Hawker pulls through, again.

Normal run-of-the-mill airmanship to see and avoid the glider in the first place, thereby avoiding demonstration of great airmanship.

Noticed(in 1st post) that the sheriff assumed the glider had hit the jet. Not probable: with the airspeed differential, the glider was in front of the Hawker (in view, in the front windscreen). The larger the speed differential, the narrower the cone of airspace in directly in front of the faster aircraft the slower ship will be located in.

There were two pilots in the jet, one should be looking out in VFR conditions below 18000 especially outside of Class B airspace. The glider also has the right-of-way(not to say a glider would crash rather than yield) over powered aircraft.

There is a major problem today with too much head-down button-pushing, and an assumption that if the TCAS is clear, there's no need to look outside.

Most gliders have no electrical system and no place to put an expensive TCAS system. A mode-C transponder would be nice, and they ARE getting smaller. Gliders carry no fuel, so can stay up far longer than a continuously-replying transponder's battery could last. Many have no nav or com radios. Many have no oxygen, and are therefore below 14000/12500 feet. Typically those above 14000 are better outfitted, with radios, GPS, 0xy, and (possibly) a transponder. Those above 18000 feet will normally be in a "wave window", a letter-of-agreement defined box that ATC will not be letting any other traffic into (very small defined area worked out for Wave flights), so not a problem for airplanes in Class A airspace.

They DO have great visibility. I've seen many jets, 210's, Bonanzas, etc, that I don't think ever saw me, but the glider doesn't have a cockpit full of "Attractive Nuisances" to detract from the job of seeing-and-avoiding.

 

[FLYLOW22]

To the crew of the hawker...you guys did an excellent job.

She and he did an AWESOME job!

 

[Guitar rocker]

I can see a transponder, but wouldn’t a radio defeat the whole purpose of going soaring. But I am not a glider pilot and I have enough time with no power. And that helicopter Schweitzer makes does not glide worth a $hit. LOL:laugh:

How would a radio defeat the purpose of soaring? I wonder, how would you then define soaring? Would that be flying around without a radio or perhaps flying an aircraft that is not powered? Wouldnt it be nice to listen and hear who else is around? Maybe I am just too used to using and listening to a radio, but I dont see how that could possibly interfere with soaring.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

I'm sure the glider profile is very small and narrow. I haven't seen anything yet that talks about the direction of the 2 acft involved. Someone brought up the right of way issue. The glider may have been struck from behind--he may have started a climb just at the wrong instance and pulled up into the path of the Hawker--who knows? This sounds like one of those freak accidents that happen occasionally where on one hand it's not either person's fault, and on the other hand both are equally to blame. The bottom line is noone got seriously hurt (which is a miracle in itself). My hat's off to all involved and wish to never be put in that position myself! BTW, I'd also go for the asphalt rather than grass--less chance of hitting a rut and cartwheeling--AVN 101.

 

[RTRHD]

How would a radio defeat the purpose of soaring? I wonder, how would you then define soaring? Would that be flying around without a radio or perhaps flying an aircraft that is not powered? Wouldnt it be nice to listen and hear who else is around? Maybe I am just too used to using and listening to a radio, but I dont see how that could possibly interfere with soaring.

I would think part of the attraction of piloting a glider is the peace and quite. Now you have that radio blaring away. It just my opinion GR we don’t have to fight about this. But what’s next sticking transponders up skydivers butts.

 

[C680]

a little video

http://www.newscarsoncity.com/Assets/Video/Playlist8-29Collision.wvx

Mainstream media could take a cue from little Carson City news outlet. Good concise coverage.

 

[GoingHot]

The glider may have been struck from behind--he may have started a climb just at the wrong instance and pulled up into the path of the Hawker--who knows?

No matter. Unless you're flying a balloon, the glider has right of way. If your local friendly FAA guy wanted to hand out a violation, it would go to the Hawker driver.

Anyway, good to hear everyone got on the ground safe.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yea?? Are you speaking from experience gutshot?

Sort of. 17 years ago, I watched a Hawker 700 blow a tire, depart the runway, and bounce through the infield across the taxiways. The gear didn't collapse and they flew the plane out two weeks later. Very rugged. I've also flown both extensively and can't think of any better aircraft to land gear up.

 

[Ultra Grump]

The crew of the 800 did a great job getting safely on the ground.

One thing that strikes me reading all the coverage is all the praise for the captain landing the airplane a) injured and b) with the avionics in her lap. What I'm curious about is did she actually land the airplane, or did she turn over the controls to the SIC (one of the main points taught during CRM courses)?

I'm not slamming her, she did a great job either way. I'm just curious.

 

[Smellycat]

Holy sh88t!

http://www.newscarsoncity.com/Assets/Video/Playlist8-29Collision.wvx

Mainstream media could take a cue from little Carson City news outlet. Good concise coverage.

Wow I cannot believe how lucky they are to still be walking terra firma. The video is cool, but I really want that cockpit video recorder tape to see what that looked like from her (The El Capatain's) perspective. Put yourself in her seat, how beyond shockingly scary that must have been. What was the pulse rate in the moments following that unscheduled rendesvous?

Congrats to the crews, and get well soon. Dang!

 

[C680]

The video is cool, but I really want that cockpit video recorder tape to see what that looked like from her (The El Capatain's) perspective.

That does not exist and hopefully never will. My take: we will see the day of pilotless passenger carrying before we see cockpit video.

 

[XJAVRO]

Great airmanship, agreed. The glorious Hawker pulls through, again.


Most gliders have no electrical system and no place to put an expensive TCAS system. A mode-C transponder would be nice, and they ARE getting smaller. Gliders carry no fuel, so can stay up far longer than a continuously-replying transponder's battery could last. Many have no nav or com radios. Many have no oxygen, and are therefore below 14000/12500 feet. Typically those above 14000 are better outfitted, with radios, GPS, 0xy, and (possibly) a transponder. Those above 18000 feet will normally be in a "wave window", a letter-of-agreement defined box that ATC will not be letting any other traffic into (very small defined area worked out for Wave flights), so not a problem for airplanes in Class A airspace.

They DO have great visibility. I've seen many jets, 210's, Bonanzas, etc, that I don't think ever saw me, but the glider doesn't have a cockpit full of "Attractive Nuisances" to detract from the job of seeing-and-avoiding.

These are very good points. Very few gliders have mode C. Mine is one of a handful. Out at Minden I have never seen a glider without a comm radio, and 90% have oxygen as high altitude flights are the norm out there. Most of the ships use a battery setup with a solar panel for a trickle charge, but the problem is most of the radios have limited freqs. On 95% of the flights in the area the gliders are only on unicomm, or soar minden ops.

There are 3 wave windows at Minden. Before going above 17999 you have to call soar minden ops to get the window opened. They will call okland center, and call you back when the window is open, and give you a max alt that the window is open to and how long the window will be open. Once above 18,000 Okland should keep all Class A traffic out of the window, but I've had close calls before.

 

[SquirrelDog]

Great job to the Crew!!!

I don't know about Goof Streams or Hawkers, but I would bet my life in a Falcon, especially a 20 and I know many whom have. Tank is an understatement. Just ask a MX guy how many bolts they got on the 20 to scure the wings to the fuslage. It was made to land on a carrier if that tells you anything. My 2 cents.

PS. just check the accident reports on Falcons vs Other Aircraft.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Heard it was a brand new sailpane and was fully equipped, but pilot was ridge soaring in the box and knew there is no requirement for the transponder so he had it off...was talking to soar ops...and atc is being talked to as the box was open to fl 240 at the time.....3 Sailplanes were higher then the collison A/C