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East vs West, The Saga Continues

Flybywire44

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Who on here knows about the East side's LOA 93 that was written in 2004? I'm gathering that this LOA goes into effect at the end of this year or mid 2010. When that happens the East pilots will retro back to their old 2004 pay rates.

Supposedly the company is approaching USAPA to get a new contract in place, but given LOA 93 its in the better interest of the East to not do anything but go back to 200k pay scales for 75/76/a330 left seat drivers.

This LOA will encourage the company to be more active in contract negotions while USAPA may choose to choose legal remedise in the courts for "verification."

East pilots also have $10,000 payments coming in 2010 and 2011... Can anyone confirm this?
 

Lampshade

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When that happens the East pilots will retro back to their old 2004 pay rates.

Where is this written? answer, nowhere. LOA93 becomes unfrozen(amendable date 12-31-2009) and a new contract can be negotiated. USAPA is spreading rumors to give some of the dumbbells hope of a a big payday if they're patient, because current contract negotiations are going nowhere. You need to find a better information source than Easties.
 
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FR8mastr

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I heard USAPA says the sun rises in the East!!!


just curious to see how that statement will be slammed.
 

Carl S.

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Just like all the Easties who say their contract "Expires" at the end of this year. I wish this was true, then the West could go up to East old rates. LOA 93 POS contract only becomes amendable at year's end. USAPA has no leverage!
 

reepicheep

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I'd put the chances of the pay raise right up there with "More new jets than God can count."
 

Crzipilot

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I know, I know, the west knows best. But I would read the language a little bit, it does raise some interesting questions. If the pay rates were to float until a new agreement was negotiated, why would there be a termination date on the pay freeze?? Whereas everything else in LOA 93 is simply amendable, the pay rates end.

The 10k payments. Well that remains to be seen. There are two, I believe 35 Million dollar payments that must be made, and there hasn't been a decision on how to divide that up. 1st payment 1/1/10 and 2nd 1/1/11. I'm sure the east will be very gracious again and vote to include the west with these payments (as they did their profit sharing monies) seeing how the west supported pay parity

As to the pay rates, I'm not a lawyer, your not a lawyer, neither of us have the negoitating notes, nor the intent behind the language, so neither of us knows what will happen end of year.
 

Flybywire44

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The East gave the West part of their profit sharing right off the bad. Crzipilot is right, they're not going to give the West anything else only to be disrespected.
 

TWA Dude

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The East gave the West part of their profit sharing right off the bad.
That was before the East broke off the joint negotiations so save your self-righteousness.
Crzipilot is right, they're not going to give the West anything else only to be disrespected.
Likewise, I'm sure.
 

iflyhigh

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I can guarantee you that if the Pilots on the East revert back to old wages, the company will be in court fighting it.

They did this with the mechanics contract and won.

Never assume a clause in a contract is a good as gold. The company always finds a way out.

As far as pay parity, believe it or not the West wanted the East on equal pay when the merger commenced, management did not. This is there only bargaining tool and management is not going to give it up.
 

BeCareful!

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Reference the $35 million: do west pilots actually think they should have a share in that money, since it's part of a concessionary agreement they had no part in?

Oh....wait, I forgot....of course they do! But what did I expect from a group that can't say a simple "thank you" for the profit sharing. Which is funnier still since post merger your bases don't actually produce profits.

Called scheduling lately? I'm going to suggest a change to the automated message: "For PHX and LAS, press one. For all revenue producing bases, press two."
 

BeCareful!

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I can guarantee you that if the Pilots on the East revert back to old wages, the company will be in court fighting it.

They did this with the mechanics contract and won.

Never assume a clause in a contract is a good as gold. The company always finds a way out.


I agree that LOA 93 appears to have no clear snapback. It's yet another reason in a VERY LONG LIST OF REASONS that ALPA is GONE!!!!!!!!!
It takes a lot more than a fatally flawed arbitration reached in a corrupt process with faulty lists to remove ALPA.....the ousting had been brewing for years.
 

Crzipilot

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As far as pay parity, believe it or not the West wanted the East on equal pay when the merger commenced, management did not. This is there only bargaining tool and management is not going to give it up.


Interesting, I don't remember the west side, really pressing really really hard for pay parity during the negotiations of the TA, which I think is where it started. I could be wrong, but whichever. I do remember a snippet about parker saying pay parity could only be achieved if the west agreed to it, and that the west had denied that. So in essence you put in place your own whipsaw.
Smart.... For what. 7.00/hr? wow.


Oh yeah, no where did I saw it was definate that the rates went back. I just simply said it looked interesting and could be a possiblity. Do I have my personal budget setup regarding it??? No, but it would be nice to get a approx. 20.00/hr or more pay raise, Quite a bit better price increase than the one the West is offering to buy the NIC........

And as BeCareful mentions. Yup... the old ALPA contract language (unfortunately for the time being USAPA will prob. use close to the same type, but at least there is a chance for Change here) Was told at one point that ALPA likes the grey language, as it gives them the chance to grieve/arbitrate contractual items that don't go their way. Well excuse me....when there are over 300+ grievances unsettled, and a whopping what??? 20 maybe arbitrations settled a year. So it's pretty obvious the alpa lawyers that write the contract language (prob. in cahoots with Harrison Ford) like it gray as it gives a bit job security. How much do those Alpa lawyers bring end "defending" our contracts? Nice little sum, not having to run their own firm, beat the bushes for clients, etc etc etc.........
 
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Lampshade

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Interesting, I don't remember the west side, really pressing really really hard for pay parity during the negotiations of the TA, which I think is where it started. I could be wrong, but whichever. I do remember a snippet about parker saying pay parity could only be achieved if the west agreed to it, and that the west had denied that. So in essence you put in place your own whipsaw.
Smart.... For what. 7.00/hr? wow.

The West supported it and even past a resolution supporting pay parity, you got some bad info cowboy.


Oh yeah, no where did I saw it was definate that the rates went back. I just simply said it looked interesting and could be a possiblity. Do I have my personal budget setup regarding it??? No, but it would be nice to get a approx. 20.00/hr or more pay raise, Quite a bit better price increase than the one the West is offering to buy the NIC........

The company proposal raised the Captain rates over $20 an hour

And as BeCareful mentions. Yup... the old ALPA contract language (unfortunately for the time being USAPA will prob. use close to the same type, but at least there is a chance for Change here) Was told at one point that ALPA likes the grey language, as it gives them the chance to grieve/arbitrate contractual items that don't go their way. Well excuse me....when there are over 300+ grievances unsettled, and a whopping what??? 20 maybe arbitrations settled a year. So it's pretty obvious the alpa lawyers that write the contract language (prob. in cahoots with Harrison Ford) like it gray as it gives a bit job security. How much do those Alpa lawyers bring end "defending" our contracts? Nice little sum, not having to run their own firm, beat the bushes for clients, etc etc etc.........Cool, another east conspiracy theory.

enjoy LOA93
 

Lampshade

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I agree that LOA 93 appears to have no clear snapback. It's yet another reason in a VERY LONG LIST OF REASONS that ALPA is GONE!!!!!!!!!
It takes a lot more than a fatally flawed arbitration reached in a corrupt process with faulty lists to remove ALPA.....the ousting had been brewing for years.

Did you forget that you voted for it?
 

Crzipilot

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Actually we didn't vote for it.

Oh and secondly, that 20.00 pay raise was for f/o's. Capts are a bit higher....over 30.00/hr raise.... So once again with your industry leading contract, your uhmmm...quite a bit behind the times....

And ya, enjoying LOA 93, not too bad.....

You guys enjoy your industry leading contract, because the whole world knows your the Shniizzzllee.....


As to the conspiracy theory. Have you ever been involved with negotiations, or dealt with the lawyers and such from Harrison and Ford???? Hmmm Well I have, and I have at least a little glimpse as to some of what goes on. It's pretty disgusting...
 
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johnnyb

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Just like all the Easties who say their contract "Expires" at the end of this year.

A little reading of the LOA would have been helpful for you.

LOA 84 contained a pay reduction of 5% for 2005, 0% for 2006 and raises of 2% in each of 2007 and 2008.

LOA 93 froze those rates at the 2005 level from 5/04 through 12/31/09.

The freeze only applies to the pay rates:

It is the rest of the document (rigs, vacation etc) that becomes amendable on 12/31/09.
 

Crzipilot

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OH yeah, quick little check. The west supported Pay parity, yes they did, although I believe attached to that little deal was a seniority list profer, that was delivered in PIT, If I remember. This wonderful profer, was WORSE than the NIC award. Upon rejection of that the West pulled their support of pay parity. (This was before the arbitration thank you, )

Pulled from ALPA website:

Two years ago (somewhere around 2005) the West MEC attempted to get the East MEC to trade seniority in a
prenup seniority integration deal (worse than even the eventual Nicolau award,
believe it or not!) for their support of our goal of reaching pay parity with them in the
Transition Agreement. When we refused to make that trade, they withdrew their
support for eliminating B-Scale on this property, and so notified Doug Parker.



Sheesh, what am I thinking. The west pilots are the angels of the industry. They have for years upheld the highest standards of contractural terms. Highest Standards of Unionism, They have never done anything wrong, for they are simply and completely trampled by the big bad bully East pilots whoe are orgres sitting under a bridge.....

hahahaha
 
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Lampshade

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For the daydreamers on the East read your contract you agreed to. The "freeze current rates" were the pre LOA93 rates (no pay increases) and the reduce rates as frozen by 18% is your new pay rate. There is no mention on snapback or other term. All the CA's are maxed on the scale so no increase, the fo's that are not maxed out on the scale might get $2 or $3 increase if the rate is unfrozen. Enjoy LOA93



Effective Date: This Agreement shall be effective upon ratification as determined by the Association and the signature of the Association’s President.

Duration: Amendable date December 31, 2009.
Other terms of 1998Agreement, as amended:
Other than as specifically modified in these documents, all terms and conditions of the ALPA-US Airways Collective Bargaining
Agreement effective January 1, 1998, as amended, shall remain in full force and effect.

Revisions to Hourly
Pay Rates:
The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement, as modified by the Restructuring Agreement, will be revised as follows:
1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/31/09.
2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18%.
3. Reduce International pay override, as stated in Section
3(F) and Section 18(C), by 18% for transoceanic trips;
eliminate international override for non-transoceanic trips.
4. Pay all flying at day rate
 

Carl S.

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I love the East's version of giving the West profit sharing! Read contract 2000, we have a "me too" clause to profit sharing from any union group. We were getting it no matter how you spin it. How many checks did the East get prior to the merger? I believe as many as the West, 0. We are one pilot group now, we want our cut of the 70 million asap!!!!
 

Crzipilot

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There is no mention on snapback or other term. All the CA's are maxed on the scale so no increase, the fo's that are not maxed out on the scale might get $2 or $3 increase if the rate is unfrozen. Enjoy LOA93



Effective Date: This Agreement shall be effective upon ratification as determined by the Association and the signature of the Association’s President.

Duration: Amendable date December 31, 2009.
Other terms of 1998Agreement, as amended:
Other than as specifically modified in these documents, all terms and conditions of the ALPA-US Airways Collective Bargaining
Agreement effective January 1, 1998, as amended, shall remain in full force and effect.

Revisions to Hourly
Pay Rates:
The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement, as modified by the Restructuring Agreement, will be revised as follows:
1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/31/09.
2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18%.
3. Reduce International pay override, as stated in Section
3(F) and Section 18(C), by 18% for transoceanic trips;
eliminate international override for non-transoceanic trips.
4. Pay all flying at day rate


Yup, believe I posted that a few months ago. I read it. And as I say, it depends on the intent and the negotiating notes, which neither I nor you know what they say.
1. It says to Freeze the current rates (LOA 84 rates I believe) effective 5/04 to 12/10.

2. Reduce these rates by 18%.

Ok.. So at 12/10, these rates would revert to unfrozen....right??? Yup, sounds like it. Now you have to goto LOA 84 to find out what the increases were supposed to be.

3. Next step is, would those increases be from the LOA 84 rates or the LOA 93 rates? Company will say 93, Usapa 84. It gets grieved, it goes to arbitration, etc etc.


But within those negotiating notes, one has to wonder if it says in there. Giving temporary relief for pay, freeze the rates and cut by 18% until '10, then rates are lifted.

Either way, if it's simply ther percentage increases which are unfrozen, I find it hard to follow your logic that a capt at TOS would not get an increase if there are 3% yearly increases in there??? TOS would move 3% every year, compounded....
 
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