E-195 Never in the Regionals

[Crzipilot]

I keep hearing there is no way to fix it....but alas I think there is. But in reality...it's not going to happen. Why....well too much I have mine, and the other mentalities shown on here. Anyways.....I believe there are ways, just that it won't happen.

 

[Capn Lucky]

The genie is out of the bottle....

We can't stuff the genie back in the bottle, so we are forced to work with the system we have. We have to look down the road and try to out guess our management to see what thay have up their sleeves to "cut costs". Personally, I believe that we're going to see legislation to allow foreign pilots and off shore companies enter the market. I can think of at least one regional who would love to have this happen. The only way we could improve our current situatiion is to have the FAA raise or create minimums for 121 pilots. That way, the long rumoured pilot shortage may actually occur. That's a pipe dream and I do not see it happening any time soon.

 

[surplus1]

Well said as usual. I wasn't very clear, but what I meant to say was that Randy Babbitt was with Eastern when they first were approached by management to start the outsourcing with Eastern Metro. Your correct that he wasn't ALPA President yet.

He is on record in an interview with Air Inc's magazine, "Airline Pilot Careers" regarding this issue. In the March 1997 issue, he stated:

"The difficulty arose probably from shortsightedness during the early days of deregulation. I say shortsightedness - I blame us, ALPA, as much as anybody, myself included. I was a member of a negotiating team at the time and the carriers came to us and said, 'Look, you know we're deregulated and we are going to sell those Convairs, those Electras, DC-7s or whatever, simply because they are not profitable anymore. We're not going to fly into small cities anymore, but you wouldn't mind if PBA or some other commuter did it, would you?' We said, 'No as long as you respect our scope clause, we'll give you permission.' In retrospect, with the incredible clarity that 20 years of hindsight will bring, we should have said, 'Yes, we care, it's our plan. If the company wants to buy some Beech 99s or F-27s, we'll fly them. We'll put a section in our contract. Set up a division and have a system similar to a farm team. But, one seniority list.' "

I agree with you and I'm also familiar with the interview you referenced and more. It happens I know Randy personally so I'm familiar with his thoughts on the subject. As ALPA President Randy was of a mind to solve the problem and probably could have done so had he been able to get the powerful MEC Chairmen of the then "big four" to listen to reason. That proved to be an impossible task and his friendliness towards the regional pilot groups probably cost him the presidency of ALPA. The current ALPA President is a good politician, but he is not the "friend" of regional pilots and never has been no matter what rhetoric he puts out..

The arrogance, and that IS what it was, of the big guys would not even allow them to consider single seniority lists so they invented "flow through" promises, which was no more that a tool that would permit them to control the regional pilot groups while they privately tried to eliminate them with unusual variations of the Scope clause. The plan failed rather completely but they still hang on to the idea that they can scope another airline out of existence.

Mangement has always seen the weakness in this concept and exploited it fully. They gave the mainline pilot groups whatever restrictions didn't interfere with their actual plans at the time, thus cementing the idea that the idea (of the major pilot group) was working. However, every negotiation thereafter, each mainline carrier had to use its bargaining capital to renegotiate scope again. and bargain with the welfare of external pilot groups in the process. Many regional pilot groups fell for what they thoght was "big brother trying to help them" and blinded themselves to what was really going on behind the scenes; the "Ostrich approach". Many, but not all. As the conflict of interst grew, some regionals decided that they didn't want to be "used" while being guaranteed nothing at all of value.

Now that the big carriers find themselves in deep financial trouble, the big regionals don't have to fight their union and their mainline "brothers" at the same time in order to survive. Management is doing it for them and management is wining. The legacy guys haven't quite thrown in the towel though; they are still trying to convince the regional groups that it is in the best interest of the regional pilot to be subservient to the whims of the mainline pilots because ultimately it will get him a job at the mainline. In many cases it's working, but not in all. The truth is it is NOT in the best interest of the regional pilot to make himself a sacrificial lamb in the interest of some mainline pilot group. If he does he'll get nothing in return.

A large cadre of junior regional pilots still think that their future is solely dependent on the good will of mainline pilots and actually believe that mainline contracts are much better. The truth is mainline contracts not only are not better, they are not as good as the top regional contracts. Sure they make more money in the much larger aircraft they fly and that will always be so, but its not that much more given the size of the aircraft and we will see it lower before we see it higher. The existence of the regional airline is NOT the cause.

The highly touted "work rules" at the mainline no longer exist, and the big defined benefit retirement plans are either gone already or rapidly on the way out. A good contract at a large regional is just as good as many mainline contracts today. Work rules are better at Comair, for example, than they are at UAL or U. They are just as good as carriers like AWA, JB, AirTran and better than Spirit. Before long, they'll be just as good as Delta, AA and CAL.

Many newer regional pilots aren't really familiar with the current mainline contracts. They just think they're better, mostly because that's what the mainline pilots tell them. In fact the average regional line pilot isn't even familiar with the details of his own contract, let alone those at other airlines whether regional or major. He knows pay scales, but precious little else.

The prospect of a furlough is much higher at airlines like United, Delta, USAir, NWA, CAL, AA, etc., than it is at a good regional or a strong LCC. Regional pilots should remember that "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" and not get hoodwinked into thinking that they're doing their future a favor by helping mainline pilots to take their largest aircraft or prevent them from getting even larger one's.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that regional pilots should seek to fly aircraft types already operated by pilots at the legacy carriers. However, new types, smaller than they operate are fair game for everyone. They have no sacred right to the EMB170/190 merely because they work for a legacy carrier. They want it becasue it is to their advantage. Well, I want it for the same reason. None of them are worrying about what is best for me; in fact the exact opposite is true. Why then should I be obligated to worry about what is best for them at my own expense? That's just not logical.

That's like telling me that an AirTran pilot should wish that his airline should not fly the 737-800 because it might affect a Delta pilots' wishes to fly more 737-800s at Delta. Instead, the AirTran pilot should want his company to use only the B-717 in hopes that he may get a better job at Delta some time in the future. That's ludicrous.

Today, a job at SWA is better than a job at United, even though SWA doesn't have any 747's and isn't going to get any. It is also better than a job at most if not all of the legacy carriers. Tomorrow, which is right around the corner, a job at a large regional flying the EMB-190, will also be better. The prospect of being on the bottom of a 6,000 member seniority list at a failing legacy carrier is just not attractive to anyone that's been around more than 5 years. Once the bigger equipment comes on line, and it will, the "regional" job, at a big regional, will be just as good as AirTran or JetBlue.

The smart regional pilot at a strong company has no logical reason to make himself furlough protection by moving to a stagnant legacy carrier. He needs to protect his own interests and secure his own job. One thing is certain, there is no legacy pilot group with any interest in protecting the jobs at any regional pilot group. If they have the chance to take those jobs, they will and it will not include embracing the affected regional "borthers". That legacy dude is protecting his own interests and will continue to do so, as he always has. The regional pilot needs to protect his own interests in the very same way.

ALPA still has some advantages, but regional pilots need to understand that ALPA's primary interest is the protection of the jobs of the legacy pilots, whether or not that comes at the expense of the regional pilots' job. ALPA is run completely by pilots from legacy carriers so its attitude should be no surprise. Use it for what you can, but recognize what it is and cover your six.

 

[surplus1]

................

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree with you and I'm also familiar with the interview you referenced and more. It happens I know Randy personally so I'm familiar with his thoughts on the subject. As ALPA President Randy was of a mind to solve the problem and probably could have done so had he been able to get the powerful MEC Chairmen of the then "big four" to listen to reason. That proved to be an impossible task and his friendliness towards the regional pilot groups probably cost him the presidency of ALPA. The current ALPA President is a good politician, but he is not the "friend" of regional pilots and never has been no matter what rhetoric he puts out..

I too agree. I have met both Randy and Duane several times. I found Randy to be much more "friendly" to the "regional" guy. I found Randy to be very sincere. Duane on the other hand comes across much like a used car salesman. I have not been impressed with him.

Regards,
Joe

 

[FlyComAirJets]

PCL_128, and any other boot licking ingratiate, should read Surplus 1's post.

 

[JoeMerchant]

PCL_128, and any other boot licking ingratiate, should read Surplus 1's post.

Too short of an attention span and not enough pictures for PCL128..... not to mention all the big words:>)

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What a joke. If we are going to use scope, has anyone ever thought why not base the scope on aircraft basic operating weight rather then seat capacity? eg. All aircraft above 70,000 lbs are mainline. That would prevent cheating the system. Just a thought.

Northwest pilots tried that with a clause stating the airlinks could only operate a plane with under 70 seats. that's why the Avro has 69 instead of 85. Then the pilots got wise to that trick and said ok only x amount CERTIFIED for 45 or more. So NWA management went to Bombardier and said recertify the CRJ-200 for 44 seats and guess what shows up at 9E the CRJ-200 with 6 seats pulled out and recertified as the 44 seat CRJ-440.... IT'S THE SAME DANG PLANE FOLKS. There is a way around scope if you want to find it..... how long has Republic/Chautauqua/SA been flying in violation of American's? What has been done about it? This battle has already been lost.

 

[labbats]

Northwest pilots tried that with a clause stating the airlinks could only operate a plane with under 70 seats. that's why the Avro has 69 instead of 85. Then the pilots got wise to that trick and said ok only x amount CERTIFIED for 45 or more. So NWA management went to Bombardier and said recertify the CRJ-200 for 44 seats and guess what shows up at 9E the CRJ-200 with 6 seats pulled out and recertified as the 44 seat CRJ-440.... IT'S THE SAME DANG PLANE FOLKS. There is a way around scope if you want to find it..... how long has Republic/Chautauqua/SA been flying in violation of American's? What has been done about it? This battle has already been lost.

What's been done about it? How about a daily fine that's been going on for months now.

 

[h25b]

Northwest pilots tried that with a clause stating the airlinks could only operate a plane with under 70 seats. that's why the Avro has 69 instead of 85. Then the pilots got wise to that trick and said ok only x amount CERTIFIED for 45 or more. So NWA management went to Bombardier and said recertify the CRJ-200 for 44 seats and guess what shows up at 9E the CRJ-200 with 6 seats pulled out and recertified as the 44 seat CRJ-440.... IT'S THE SAME DANG PLANE FOLKS. There is a way around scope if you want to find it..... how long has Republic/Chautauqua/SA been flying in violation of American's? What has been done about it? This battle has already been lost.

Looks like people are starting to figure out why I've been saying, "if its got jet engines, it goes to mainline..." Simple and effective...

 

[PCL_128]

PCL_128, and any other boot licking ingratiate, should read Surplus 1's post.

The problem with Surplus1's post is the same as it always is: it just isn't so! No regional's contract comes close to comparing to the contracts at the legacy carriers in terms of both pay and work rules. I have the CBAs of pretty much every ALPA and non-ALPA carrier right on my computer as we speak. Surplus, as a former ALPA Officer, you had the exact same information available to you. Take a look at the current CAL, DAL, AA, AAA, etc... contracts and compare them to your current book at CMR. You may have a few minor areas that are better, but overall pay and QOL just doesn't compare. They have a long way to come down before they come close to approaching the regionals' level. Saying that a career at the regionals even comes close to one at a legacy is just ridiculous.

I agree with Randy Babbit completely when he says that ALPA made a mistake. Notice however that Randy has never once advocated any of the RJDC's positions on the elimination of scope. Randy is merely stating the obvious: ALPA screwed up on this one. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. It would certainly be nice to go back and undo the damage that has been done to this profession. Unfortunately, that's just wishful thinking. The only thing we can do at this point is stop the continued erosion of the profession. In other words, do the exact opposite of what Surplus and his RJDC cronies advocate. We have to put a stop to this outsourcing to the regionals at some point. Expanding it as Surplus advocates would be a disaster. Stop reading RJDC propaganda and wake up to reality.

 

[PCL_128]

Looks like people are starting to figure out why I've been saying, "if its got jet engines, it goes to mainline..." Simple and effective...

Amen to that!

 

[Dizel8]

Looks like people are starting to figure out why I've been saying, "if its got jet engines, it goes to mainline..." Simple and effective...

One step further, then you got it: If it flies for the company, company pilots fly it.
No need to give away ATRs,Dash 8s or B-1900 etc. You start in the ATR you end in the 787/747/380!

 

[FreightNazi]

One step further, then you got it: If it flies for the company, company pilots fly it.
No need to give away ATRs,Dash 8s or B-1900 etc. You start in the ATR you end in the 787/747/380!

But what if the newhire is former military? You don't expect him to start in a turboprop do you? Maybe the civilians could start in the turboprop and the military guys start in the 737/A-320 size jet. That sounds more fair. Otherwise, you are not going to be able to attract the military pilots as most will not want to start out flying a turboprop.

 

[Nindiri]

Tough crap for them. They can take a senority number and start at the bottom just like everyone else.