E-195 Never in the Regionals

[h25b]

Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 966



Aircraft Experience: Small singles and twins
Flight Experience: ciVillain
Ratings: CFII,MEI,AGI
Current Position: right seat hell
Total Time: 1100

piloted by sub 1000 hour fo's, too...

And the difference in skills between 500 TT and 1100 TT is sooo substantial..

 

[ultrarunner]

i could care less what plane i am flying as long as i am getting paid for what we all deserve. No one at the regional level gets paid what we should be for the type of equipment we fly.

The pay that you accepted IS the standard...you set it. Most folks don't understand that the bar has already been set so low.

When folks are willing to work for X dollars, that's what the market will bear, and that IS the standard.

To argure that some other pilot at some other airline is making more for similar sized equipement is such a shallow argurment, and only shifts blame to someone else.

Supply and demand dude....and the airlines are gonna win this battle for the next several years....

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

ATR and Q400 yes. All the jets, NO!!!! Jets should never have been allowed to go to the regionals. It's a mistake that all of us will pay for for the rest of our careers.

Why should the mode of propulsion matter? They are big airplanes... It's seats folks, not whether the fans have a cowling around them or not. Not so long ago, Viscounts, Martins and YS-11s were mainline equipment.

Personally I think if the unions had persued "brand scope" years ago none of this would be an issue. Fly an airplane in Delta paint, you fly for Delta I say. But I guess that ship has long sailed.

Sad.

 

[JoeMerchant]

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Embraer%20ERJ-190%2F195&distinct_entry=true

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/865258/M/

I hope no one wants to fly this for a regional. the 170 never should have been either.

The mistake wasn't allowing the 170 to be flown by "regionals". The mistake was ALPA allowing certain airplanes to be labeled "regional" while others are "mainline". Then the mistake was ALPA allowing the airplanes labeled "regional" to be used as bargaining chips for those who are flying the airplanes labeled "mainline". There shouldn't be a moving line that is used to differentiate between "regional" and "mainline". How about "airlines" that fly "airliners".

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

Keeping the 190/195 at the majors is not the responsibility of regional pilots. It is up to mainline pilots.

Hopefully they can get it done.

Even if it means that they have to undercut the "regionals" to capture this flying? That is what the USAirways MEC did to capture the E170 flying. They undercut EVERY other regional. How is that good?

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

ATR and Q400 yes. All the jets, NO!!!! Jets should never have been allowed to go to the regionals. It's a mistake that all of us will pay for for the rest of our careers.

PCL128,
Why does the method of propulsion matter? Tell me, what were the DC3s, DC7s, Martin 404s, Connies, and Covair 580s? Were they "mainline" or were they "regional".

Here are some pictures of "regional" airplanes according to PCL128.

http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/1049.html


http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1417,00.html

Joe

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

PCL128,
Why does the method of propulsion matter? Tell me, what were the DC3s, DC7s, Martin 404s, Connies, and Covair 580s? Were they "mainline" or were they "regional".

Here are some pictures of "regional" airplanes according to PCL128.

http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/1049.html


http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1417,00.html

Joe

Um, that's what I said, Yo.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Personal attacks aside, he was absolutely correct. If ALPA had stuck to a simple rule of jet aircraft stay at mainline none of this would be a problem...

Actually, the mistake ALPA made was allowing the "prop" aircraft to leave the property. This is how the camel got his nose in the tent. Former ALPA Pres. Randy Babbitt, who allowed this to happen at Eastern, admits this was a mistake. Now we have the current mess.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Um, that's what I said, Yo.

We were both responding to PCL128 at about the same time. Your exactly right PropCapt. Sounds to me like those who like to talk about "SJS" are the ones who suffer most from it. Sounds like PCL 128 suffers from "SJS".

Joe

 

[Tim47SIP]

There comming!

Scope involves seats and that is something management can't get around unless ALPA allows it.

Well, we all know how effective ALPA has been. Just ask all those carriers with their no furlough clauses. For the last 15 years, ALPA has been trying to manipulate the system for the advantage of the big five. The arogance has become so thick and the blinders so large, that the industry just did a sidestep and shot around them. ALPA is now looking around trying to figure out what happened. If they would have been a little more concerned with all flying instead of just the cool stuff, we wouldnt be having this conversation. My guess is that you WILL see up to 110 seat aircraft at DCI, Mesa, etc. Should it happen at all? Absolutely not! But with JB rates where they areas well as LCC competition, management will be forced to persue and emulate those pay and operating structures. There is no way mainline will stoop to that low of pay. If they do, we are all in trouble. I guess they are screwed if they do, and screwed if they dont. What an industry we are in!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Scope involves seats and that is something management can't get around unless ALPA allows it.

Well, we all know how effective ALPA has been. Just ask all those carriers with their no furlough clauses. For the last 15 years, ALPA has been trying to manipulate the system for the advantage of the big five. The arogance has become so thick and the blinders so large, that the industry just did a sidestep and shot around them. ALPA is now looking around trying to figure out what happened. If they would have been a little more concerned with all flying instead of just the cool stuff, we wouldnt be having this conversation. My guess is that you WILL see up to 110 seat aircraft at DCI, Mesa, etc. Should it happen at all? Absolutely not! But with JB rates where they areas well as LCC competition, management will be forced to persue and emulate those pay and operating structures. There is no way mainline will stoop to that low of pay. If they do, we are all in trouble. I guess they are screwed if they do, and screwed if they dont. What an industry we are in!!!

Well said Tim!

I am all for regaining control of the flying for purposes of "job security". However, I have to be a stakeholder in whatever group is trying to regain that control. If I'm not and a mainline MEC through ALPA tries to regain this flying by either:
1. Undercutting the industry standard,
2. Not respecting my seniority,
or
3. Physically taking airplanes from my carrier,
... then we are going to have SERIOUS problems.

Joe

 

[gnx99]

What's the point in arguing about this stuff? It's NEVER gonna go back the other way.

 

[labbats]

Arguing about the pay being similar at mainline is ridiculous. Do you honestly believe that your quality of life would be the same at a regional compared to mainline? I'll take mainline work rules any day of the week. It's going to add up to a lot more pay when you add up 5 hours minimum per day flown, etc, etc. Hourly wage is a small part of the big picture.

 

[surplus1]

Actually, the mistake ALPA made was allowing the "prop" aircraft to leave the property. This is how the camel got his nose in the tent. Former ALPA Pres. Randy Babbitt, who allowed this to happen at Eastern, admits this was a mistake. Now we have the current mess.

You are correct that the door to outsourceing was first opened at EAL. For the sake of clarity only, Randy Babbit was not president of ALPA at the time, he was on the EAL Negotiating Committee. Back then, "commuter airlines" and intra-state airlines were not even admitted to ALPA membership.

IF I'm not mistaken, the ALPA Pres. at the time was JJ O'Donnell. Hank Duffy, a Delta pilot followed him. Babbitt was Duffy's Executive Administrator and succeeded him as President.

It goes back a very long way. When all this started many major airlines were still flying "props" and so were the "regional" airlines, like Ozark, Allegheny, Mohawk, Piedmont, North Central, Northeast, Southern and many more. The "regionals" merged with each other to become "majors" or were absorbed by the majors like TWA and others. The "commuters" then became what we call "regionals" today.

ALPA failed to realize that just as a Convair or an F-27 or a Martin 404 evolved into DC-9s and 737's, the Beech 99 and the Metros evolved into RJs with 50 seats. Those 50-seat RJs have evolved into larger RJs and will continue to do so.

However, the wall of segregation within ALPA was simply built higher, in the mistaken belief that it would somehow prevent the growth of the regional carriers or the evolution of their equipment. It didn't and it won't. The wall is crumbling and attempts to plug the holes will fail because the basic foundantion on which the wall is built is flawed. ALPA and its "mainline" groups just won't acknowledge it.

Today's big regionals will eventually fly the EMB-170/190 series of equipment and there is no way that ALPA can prevent it. Their response is too little and much to late. Economics dictate that eventual outcome and poison pill rhetoric won't fix the breach in the wall.

ALPA had many chances to take down the wall of segregation between large and small airlines and replace it with a practical solution, but adamantly refused to do it. Well, the chinkens have come home to roost and the segregationists of ALPA will pay the price. You can't prevent progress with stupidity indefinitely.

SWA pilots do just fine and enjoy a very good life even though they "only fly 737s". The big "regionals" will also do just fine, even if they "only fly the EMB-195", which eventually they will. It is only a matter of time.

This change in the industry is not a passing thing. Some of the majors will survive but they will operate in the market segment that is suited to the "big" airplanes they fly. That won't include short haul on a large scale. The big boys have already lost that market segment of 110 seats and less. Everybody knows that ... except pilots.

 

[Smoked Toilet]

Im not sure what the actual seat difference between the CRJ700 and EMB170 is though. Could you explain this Superpilot92?

I will.. 4 seats. At least in ours.

 

[labbats]

Well, that and customers actually enjoy flying in the EMB170.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Arguing about the pay being similar at mainline is ridiculous. Do you honestly believe that your quality of life would be the same at a regional compared to mainline? I'll take mainline work rules any day of the week. It's going to add up to a lot more pay when you add up 5 hours minimum per day flown, etc, etc. Hourly wage is a small part of the big picture.

It's not just pay anymore labbats. The mainlines have taken a huge hit in "work rules" since this downslide started. For example, most 50 seat RJ lines at ASA are better than the 737-2 at DAL. Most of the 50 seat lines at ASA are 3 on 4 off. Most of the 737-2 lines at DAL are 4 on 3 off. Trip and duty rigs at many of the majors are also going. UAL and USAirways have given them up. There isn't as big a difference as there used to be.

 

[Nindiri]

Good looking airplane. I doubt my regional ever gets them, but if we did I'd love to fly it. One can hope, I guess.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 966



Aircraft Experience: Small singles and twins
Flight Experience: ciVillain
Ratings: CFII,MEI,AGI
Current Position: right seat hell
Total Time: 1100



And the difference in skills between 500 TT and 1100 TT is sooo substantial..

i am not pining for the right seat in a jet, old man

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are correct that the door to outsourceing was first opened at EAL. For the sake of clarity only, Randy Babbit was not president of ALPA at the time, he was on the EAL Negotiating Committee. Back then, "commuter airlines" and intra-state airlines were not even admitted to ALPA membership.

IF I'm not mistaken, the ALPA Pres. at the time was JJ O'Donnell. Hank Duffy, a Delta pilot followed him. Babbitt was Duffy's Executive Administrator and succeeded him as President.

It goes back a very long way. When all this started many major airlines were still flying "props" and so were the "regional" airlines, like Ozark, Allegheny, Mohawk, Piedmont, North Central, Northeast, Southern and many more. The "regionals" merged with each other to become "majors" or were absorbed by the majors like TWA and others. The "commuters" then became what we call "regionals" today.

Well said as usual. I wasn't very clear, but what I meant to say was that Randy Babbitt was with Eastern when they first were approached by management to start the outsourcing with Eastern Metro. Your correct that he wasn't ALPA President yet.

He is on record in an interview with Air Inc's magazine, "Airline Pilot Careers" regarding this issue. In the March 1997 issue, he stated:

"The difficulty arose probably from shortsightedness during the early days of deregulation. I say shortsightedness - I blame us, ALPA, as much as anybody, myself included. I was a member of a negotiating team at the time and the carriers came to us and said, 'Look, you know we're deregulated and we are going to sell those Convairs, those Electras, DC-7s or whatever, simply because they are not profitable anymore. We're not going to fly into small cities anymore, but you wouldn't mind if PBA or some other commuter did it, would you?' We said, 'No as long as you respect our scope clause, we'll give you permission.' In retrospect, with the incredible clarity that 20 years of hindsight will bring, we should have said, 'Yes, we care, it's our plan. If the company wants to buy some Beech 99s or F-27s, we'll fly them. We'll put a section in our contract. Set up a division and have a system similar to a farm team. But, one seniority list.' "