DW is mad at Jetblue

[General Lee]

FWIW, the Japanese Battleship Yamamoto was sunk by the US Navy, 60 years ago today. For all you doobie smoking, non-serving ingrates, this historical event will mean less than the day ALPA caved on the 8 hour duty day. "But the weather is bad and I am tired and I don't feel like flying." 65 year retirement, 10 hour duty day, 2 legacy carriers by 2015. Duane Woerth's legacy.

Sounds like what the AA MD80 crew might have been thinking that night in LIT.
"Hey, it's only a t-storm, who cares if we are tired....? Forget diverting..."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SUNDOWN]

[QUOTE=General Lee]Sounds like what the AA MD80 crew might have been thinking that night in LIT.
"Hey, it's only a t-storm, who cares if we are tired....? Forget diverting..."

Bye Bye--General Lee[/QUOTE]

General, If my failing memory serves me correctly, that trip was a several (more than 2) leg trip on close to a 16 hour duty day. This event is more likely to happen again with current regs, than with any proposed change to a 12 hour duty day and 2 legs. I have seen nothing to change this. Maybe I am wrong. I guess what bothers me is that pilots from other carriers seem to take bits of info and rumors (not paying for planes, cleaning a/c, 5 year contract, etc) and run with it. Wouldn't it be more constructive to actually ask B6 pilots about our current situation? Think of it this way...If you were an outsider to this industry and read this board.... what would you think of our profession. Do you think anybody would have pity on us or call us professionals. Remember most B6 pilots like myself are former ALPA pilots who are not interested in hurting the industry.

 

[wndshr]

Uh.... What do you think doing transcon turns will be. Sheer excitement?? I think not. Our JFK SEA legs are a killer! Then to turn around and do it again, no way. If you want to do that, knock yourself out, but not me.
737

JFK to DTW is a killer in a.................737!!

I bet if you flew the 767 on a transcon turn it might be just a "little" more comfy!

 

[FeelingBlue]

So what study does anyone have that states 8 hrs a day is the max recommended? What scientific data was this based on? Where is the data that the FAA and Du-Wayne Worthless used to come to their conclusions?
Lets see what the latest data shows.

Additionally, if ya'll are so worried about new flt and duty limits then use your all powerful unions to negotiate the status quo for ya. They can do that can't they? Isn't that what they are there for?

 

[enigma]

I forget exactly what I said about this the last time it came up, but this time I just can't see an overall positive for this proposal.

In relation to the entire industry, the number of daytime transcons are less than a drop in the bucket.

Let's first set down a few concepts that I hope we can all agree on:

1. If implemented, the exemption will become industy standard.
2. If implemented, this exemption will be abused.
3. If implemented, management will find a way to re-interpret this into something not currently seen, and the re-interpretation will not be in the favor of pilots.


I am not willing to support a plan that enhances the QOL for a few senior Blue JFK based pilots, but could end up degrading safety and QOL for everyone. As others have said, if JetBlue wants to fly out and back transcon, current rules already allow that as long as they use additional pilots. JetBlue management knew the rules of operation when they started their airline. Now they need to play by the rules.

PLEASE NOTICE THAT I, IN NO WAY, AM PAINTING ANY JETBLUE PILOT AS BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS PROPOSAL. JETBLUE PILOTS ARE NON-UNION, AND THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THESE SITUATIONS. (not that ALPA has done much lately either, but fifty years ago ALPA DID gain some reasonable work rules)

With all that said, I'd be happy to let JetBlue have this if we lived in a perfect world. A world where: the original exemption would never be changed, where my company would never change my base forcing me to commute, a world where the w/x never took a dump at the worst possible time, a world where airplanes didn't break at the gate, where wheelchairs were banned from airports, ......I think that you get my drift.

Look people, if airlines want to be in the business of people transportation, there are certain inviolable costs in that business. One of which is that the FAR's must be followed. Would we all be so quick to accept a new exemption that allows you to depart with only enough fuel to the destination and no reserve if it let you get home one day earlier. I wouldn't! Let's leave well enough alone. OK?

ramble over,
enigma

 

[80drvr]

So what study does anyone have that states 8 hrs a day is the max recommended? What scientific data was this based on? Where is the data that the FAA and Du-Wayne Worthless used to come to their conclusions?
Lets see what the latest data shows.

Additionally, if ya'll are so worried about new flt and duty limits then use your all powerful unions to negotiate the status quo for ya. They can do that can't they? Isn't that what they are there for?

Why don't you go back and read worth's original letter. He says nothing about the scientific merits of Jet Blue's proposal. The problem is a carrier (or carriers) cherry picking a broken set of regulations by exemption to suit their particular business needs, whatever they may be at that time.

The NTSB and Unions have advocated complete overhaul of flight/duty time regulations for at least a decade. But it has gone nowhere due to special interests and the FAA's compliance with them.

I would applaud Jet Blue if their efforts were directed at complete overhaul, but it appears they are not.

 

[AA717driver]

Great post, enigma!

This is not war. This is a job.

This is not a great crusade. This is a job.

We may love our jobs and be extremely passionate about aviation but we are not exactly looking for the Ark of the covenant or the Holy Grail. If someone wants to change the rules to benefit themselves and it may put me at a disadvantage, I'll oppose it.

I'm tired of taking one for the team.TC

 

[NAA Pilot]

Just add a third flightdeck crewmember!!! How hard is that? You would think the JB pilots would want that as it adds jobs, allows for proper rest AND you get your precious high time turn!

 

[English]

AA717driver, I LOVE your new avatar!

What a beauty.

 

[Spooky 1]

Great post, enigma!

This is not war. This is a job.

This is not a great crusade. This is a job.

We may love our jobs and be extremely passionate about aviation but we are not exactly looking for the Ark of the covenant or the Holy Grail. If someone wants to change the rules to benefit themselves and it may put me at a disadvantage, I'll oppose it.

I'm tired of taking one for the team.TC

How would you expect this rule modification to effect your job flying a G550? Looks like you are furloughed, and yes if you were thinking about going back to AA then there might be implications. Otherwise as a G550 Capt. I just don't see the connection and no I do not believe in the trikle down theory as it applies to this issue. Surley would not give up a G550 job to go back to AA, would you? How many hours are willing to fly in the G550 with only two guys? I'll bet it is in excess of 10 and that does not figure in the time hanging around the FBO. Not being critical of your posts, just trying to see where you are coming from on this issue.

Thanks...

 

[nimtz]

FWIW, the Japanese Battleship Yamamoto was sunk by the US Navy, 60 years ago today. For all you doobie smoking, non-serving ingrates, this historical event will mean less than the day ALPA caved on the 8 hour duty day. "But the weather is bad and I am tired and I don't feel like flying." 65 year retirement, 10 hour duty day, 2 legacy carriers by 2015. Duane Woerth's legacy.

Ah the ship was called the Yamato. Believe it or not the Japanese didn't name their ships after admirals.

As far as this thread goes I gotta say the "just do an autoland" logic is about the most pathetic thing I've seen on this board in a long time. Why not add to that logic with the famous "just grab another cup of coffee if you are tired."

 

[G4G5]

So what study does anyone have that states 8 hrs a day is the max recommended? What scientific data was this based on? Where is the data that the FAA and Du-Wayne Worthless used to come to their conclusions?
Lets see what the latest data shows.

Additionally, if ya'll are so worried about new flt and duty limits then use your all powerful unions to negotiate the status quo for ya. They can do that can't they? Isn't that what they are there for?

We are not here to educate you, do the research yourself.

Go to Google and type in:

Fatigue conter measures
Zteam
Nasa
Ames

It's all right their in black and white

 

[G4G5]

I forget exactly what I said about this the last time it came up, but this time I just can't see an overall positive for this proposal.

In relation to the entire industry, the number of daytime transcons are less than a drop in the bucket.

Let's first set down a few concepts that I hope we can all agree on:

1. If implemented, the exemption will become industy standard.
2. If implemented, this exemption will be abused.
3. If implemented, management will find a way to re-interpret this into something not currently seen, and the re-interpretation will not be in the favor of pilots.


I am not willing to support a plan that enhances the QOL for a few senior Blue JFK based pilots, but could end up degrading safety and QOL for everyone. As others have said, if JetBlue wants to fly out and back transcon, current rules already allow that as long as they use additional pilots. JetBlue management knew the rules of operation when they started their airline. Now they need to play by the rules.

PLEASE NOTICE THAT I, IN NO WAY, AM PAINTING ANY JETBLUE PILOT AS BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS PROPOSAL. JETBLUE PILOTS ARE NON-UNION, AND THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THESE SITUATIONS. (not that ALPA has done much lately either, but fifty years ago ALPA DID gain some reasonable work rules)

With all that said, I'd be happy to let JetBlue have this if we lived in a perfect world. A world where: the original exemption would never be changed, where my company would never change my base forcing me to commute, a world where the w/x never took a dump at the worst possible time, a world where airplanes didn't break at the gate, where wheelchairs were banned from airports, ......I think that you get my drift.

Look people, if airlines want to be in the business of people transportation, there are certain inviolable costs in that business. One of which is that the FAR's must be followed. Would we all be so quick to accept a new exemption that allows you to depart with only enough fuel to the destination and no reserve if it let you get home one day earlier. I wouldn't! Let's leave well enough alone. OK?

ramble over,
enigma

Nice Post!

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . Would we all be so quick to accept a new exemption that allows you to depart with only enough fuel to the destination and no reserve if it let you get home one day earlier. . . .<snip>. . .

.
.
.
Geeze, don't give them any more hairbrained ideas. . .
.
.
.

 

[AA717driver]

Spooky1--I spent 18 of the last 19 years in the airline biz. I have not yet completely ruled out going back. So, I am chiming in because I do have a dog in this fight. It's a small one but a dog nevertheless.

And, yes, the rules and the attitude are much different in 91--that's the nature of the beast. If G4G5 wants to run his operation differently than I do, that's his business. Same with G200. If I don't like what my department does with respect to flight times, I'll either live with it, change it or quit.

As several of us have pointed out, in the airlines, what one company does is observed and (if it's beneficial to management) copied by others.

Thanks, English. My wife didn't like Miss Gina being my avatar so I put one of the planes in there instead.TC

 

[Diesel-9sRule]

no more than TWO LEGS A DAY!!!![/QUOTE]

Wake up you clown!

Current B6 Management "may" follow this "suggestion"...but do you for a minute believe that the "next" management will?

Oh yeah...that's right...Dave and David will never leave jetblue!!!

Be careful what you ask for...you may get it.

Besides, since 1986 there have been at least 4 attemps by the ATA to change the 8 hour rule. Jetblue is just being a pawn of the ATA and 'blue pilots are to dumb to realize it

p.s. Pardon my spelling errors.

 

[furloughed dude]

Jetblue continues to thumb it's nose at the profession. These idiots never think that their actions effect others. They are so concerned about themselves that they work for on a 5 year contract, want an exemption to FARs, and lowered the 100 seat pay rate to below regional pilot payscales.

There isn't alot that Duane can do, I suggest he recommend that ALPA carriers exempt Jetblue pilots from their jumpseats. Wonder how tired they will be after sleeping in the crew lounge (or J-Lo crashpad in Queens) then making their transcon turns.

I know some NWA and UAL guys have already given them the boot, lets keep it up!

 

[Dizel8]

"I know some NWA and UAL guys have already given them the boot, lets keep it up!"

Oh, and what pray tell will that accomplish, ALPA showing it's might, you sleeping better at night? Maybe ALPA can deny NWA pilots the jumpseat because NWA always acted like the spoiler when other were trying to raise the fares or maybe you can deny U pilots, because they agreed to such low pay. Heck, the list is endless and before you know it, jumpseats are a thing of the past everywhere.

There are plenty of JBU pilots who is not enarmored with this proposal and hopefully, as it did last time, it will go away.

As for the rest of your comments, I have neither the time nor inclination to address them.

 

[Dizel8]

So furloughed dude, want to tell us about this? Did you take lesson from Kerry?

You guys don't get it. Who cares how many hours you fly in a 14 hour duty day? I am more tired doing turns in a DC-9 for 14 hours at NWA than I would be flying transcon turns in an Airbus. I don't find multiple hour sits help keep me fresh. I do better if I keep moving. What do you guys do to rest when you have a 3 hour sit? Call home, check your schedule, etc? It is rare to get any sleep or find a place to sleep. NWA doesn't provide hotel rooms unless you have a 4 hour sit. I think this is a great deal. I hope you guys get it approved.

It's is all about duty time for me. That is how the military does it, they don't care how much time we spend airborne, just how long we work. I don't want to talk too highly of the military's way though, a 26 hour augmented day isn't too fun. But, any way you look at it, working 14 hours sucks, but at least I would like to get paid for it!

Again, I think this is great, and good luck with the approval. Hell you could get your month done with 7 days of work. Fantastic! More time with the family and golf course!

One thing that I advocating is lenthening the duty day. It is plenty long as it is.

Or perhaps this???

I think being able to work 11 hours in one duty period is great. At my last airline, I had many 14 hour days with 6 legs. This at a airline that was supposed to have a pretty decent contract (NWA). To me the biggest factor is duty period, not how much time you fly in a day. Those days where you have multiple 2 hour sits certainly don't make me feel rested. I would rather limit my time away from home. The bottom line is not to screw with the length of duty..

Great job JB guys. I think this is a welcome change.

Now I get it!

I have applied at Jetblue and other corporate jobs. I am not willing to surrender my seniority, but there is a very good chance that I would choose to stay a company like Jetblue.....

 

[Flying Freddie]

Repent, ALPA is dead!