Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[Occam's Razor]

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez?

Red Herring. Substitute "taxpayers" for "membership" and take a number. Same cynicism...different suit.

We can't come together on issues of scope, mergers, or age-60.... how do you expect us to come together on the political process..... maybe we should get our house in order before we try to clean up the neighborhood....

Following your logic we should dissolve the United States because Americans are split on abortion, immigration, Iraq, and evolution.

How about we keep faith with the process...and try not to le the things that divide us distract us from what unites us.

 

[enigma]

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez? If so, it is YOU that is out of touch...

.

There were no pictures of Hillary at OUR rally. Our only prop was the big rat. The Hillary pics were down at the IAM rally. ALPA did attend the IAM rally, but didn't organize it.

And, sadly, when you subtract the MEC members, SPSC members, National SPSC Committee members, National Officers and Staff from the attendence, you end up with a very small number of line pilots taking the time to attend.

 

[CopilotDoug]

That is correct. Would you rather have no slowing it down? CorpAmerica has slaughtered labor in this country. It is just the way it is.... And not too many people seem to concerned. Air Line Pilots certainly don't?

I do agree...something is better than nothing. My outlook of ALPA has changed...ALPA is not a Union. ALPA is a political entity which dictates to a conglomerate of pilot groups, each with different goals. ALPA is a third party consultant which Airlines can hire to provide services with varying results at each airline. ALPA only loosely resembles a Union. Not to imply this is bad in any way...it just is what it is.

A greater value? Look around your crewroom. Everyone can safely fly a jet but who can address Congress? Being a poltician is allot different than being a pilot. ALPA pilots need a politican in washington DC who knows pilots. We've got to offer a fellow pilot incentive to give up 15+ days off to go do the Wash DC grind...

Like you said, he's a politician, he is not a fellow pilot anymore. He left the line because for whatever reason, he sees additional benefits and improvement for himself in politics. Sadly, over time ALPA pilots will see that Prater's campaign spearheaded by the phrase "Takin' It Back" was nothing more than talk...which is what politicians are experts at.

Of course it is gray. What are you going to do about it? Complain about your leadership or support them?

I think the term Leadership implies someone is following. As has been stated...not too many are following. I think the idea of ALPA has to be changed. Again, I submit that ALPA is just a contracted service which is not to be mistaken for an entity which binds its subscribers in any way. And this needs to be clarified among the members, so as not to mislead them or give them fals-hopes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is exactly this attitude that is the problem. Blame this on the membership that pays the bills.... I see lot's of pictures of Hillary Clinton at the rally.... is that our solution Rez? If so, it is YOU that is out of touch...

Why do you say that based on the above reply?

I am not a Hilary fan but the biotch is going to vote on pilot legislation.. do you want her to vote for or against pilot legislation?

We can't come together on issues of scope, mergers, or age-60.... how do you expect us to come together on the political process..... maybe we should get our house in order before we try to clean up the neighborhood....

I agree. Too bad nobody is home. Meaning we can;t get our house together if no one particpates in ALPA. In addition guys like you that sue ALPA create divisiveness. But you don't seem to care about that.. you just want ALPA to be your individual represntation, not a collective effort.

Sorry Joe, try again....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And, sadly, when you subtract the MEC members, SPSC members, National SPSC Committee members, National Officers and Staff from the attendence, you end up with a very small number of line pilots taking the time to attend.

A very accurate observation. I will say though that the Air Line Pilots looked good and stood out in full uniform.

It really is a shame that pilots don't care to be involved in thier own careers...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I do agree...something is better than nothing. My outlook of ALPA has changed...ALPA is not a Union. ALPA is a political entity which dictates to a conglomerate of pilot groups, each with different goals. ALPA is a third party consultant which Airlines can hire to provide services with varying results at each airline. ALPA only loosely resembles a Union. Not to imply this is bad in any way...it just is what it is.

Sounds like you are coming around to reality. ALPA was always this. For some reason Pilots believed and created expectations that ALPA was something different. Not sure why, but they only get disapointed.

I think we can make ALPA more effective, but it will take the membership getting involved. Too bad cause everyone else thinks the leadership need to do more. Are there eight days in a week? IF so, the membership would expect the leadership to do exactly that before they give up one day a week.

Like you said, he's a politician, he is not a fellow pilot anymore.

No. he is still a fellow pilot. Just because he goes to WashDC to represent you makes him less of a pilot? Less than the pilot group? That is insulting.

He left the line because for whatever reason, he sees additional benefits and improvement for himself in politics.

This is a bad thing? Why?

Sadly, over time ALPA pilots will see that Prater's campaign spearheaded by the phrase "Takin' It Back" was nothing more than talk...which is what politicians are experts at.

What do you want him to say? "keep giving it up"? He is trying to motivate guys like you to be a postive contribution to this profession instead of a cynical sandbag.

I think the term Leadership implies someone is following.

It sure does and with low LEC attendance, low rally attendance, low voter partication...just simply..low membership involvement, where is the follwership? How can you lead when no one is there?

At the May 17th Rally, there were about 100 pilots there representing 60,000. That is .16% yes POINT ONE SIX PERCENT.

As has been stated...not too many are following. I think the idea of ALPA has to be changed.

It sure does. How can you change when the membership doesn't particapte.

Again, I submit that ALPA is just a contracted service which is not to be mistaken for an entity which binds its subscribers in any way. And this needs to be clarified among the members, so as not to mislead them or give them fals-hopes.

Get them to show to a meeting so we can clarify!

We can argue as much as you want, but it begins and ends with the membership.

 

[CopilotDoug]

For one: I don't see this as an argument as much as a discussion, but moving on...

Sounds like you are coming around to reality. ALPA was always this. For some reason Pilots believed and created expectations that ALPA was something different. Not sure why, but they only get disapointed.

Is it accurate to say pilots are concerned primarily with Pay, Benefits, and Schedule?

I think we can make ALPA more effective, but it will take the membership getting involved. Too bad cause everyone else thinks the leadership need to do more. Are there eight days in a week? IF so, the membership would expect the leadership to do exactly that before they give up one day a week.

Hey, I'm not going to knock the guys who were at the rally. But who did that benefit? The Public doesn't care about pilots and management certainly doesn't either. In theory, what if you did have 50% of the pilots out there (Probably not likely with pilots flying and sitting reserve...) but just in theory...what would it prove and to who?

No. he is still a fellow pilot. Just because he goes to WashDC to represent you makes him less of a pilot? Less than the pilot group? That is insulting.

He WAS a pilot. He's a politician now.

This is a bad thing? Why?

It's about him. He has his a$$ covered and doesn't have to endure the possibility of further paycuts for a couple more years. Clearly walking in step with the rank and file...(you see where the disconnect starts?) Blame the disconnect on the members as much as you want, but it's the members that hold the key to ALPA's power. It just is what it is.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is it accurate to say pilots are concerned primarily with Pay, Benefits, and Schedule?

It is accurate to say that [ALPA] pilots function as independent contractors. They are concerned for thier individual well being.. not the collective.

Hey, I'm not going to knock the guys who were at the rally. But who did that benefit?

You've just proved my point. You see no value in the Rally, yet it was on the cover of the Money Section of Friday's USAToday.

The individual and the collective are related and dependant on each other. But yet no one is willing to sacrifice thier individual time for the collective. Hence the ineffectiveness of unions....

The Public doesn't care about pilots and management certainly doesn't either. In theory, what if you did have 50% of the pilots out there (Probably not likely with pilots flying and sitting reserve...) but just in theory...what would it prove and to who?

What if 30,000 ALPA members where there? that would be a loud message. But only 100. So that means management thinks "hey, these union guys don't speak for the pilots. The pilots are happy with the status quo"

IOW if you don't speak up someone else will speak for you and craft your thoughts for you.

He WAS a pilot. He's a politician now.

And? Do pilots need a politican in Washington?

It's about him. He has his a$$ covered and doesn't have to endure the possibility of further paycuts for a couple more years.

false. the last President took paycuts. Look, the guy works 6 to 7 days a week.

Clearly walking in step with the rank and file...(you see where the disconnect starts?)

He just toured the country! What more do you want him to do!

Blame the disconnect on the members as much as you want,

well, they are the ones who are doing very little.

but it's the members that hold the key to ALPA's power. It just is what it is.

You are right, the probelm is that power is weak because it is not collected, concentrated and effective. I've been in LEC meetings with pilots sitting in the next room playing cards and socializing with FA's! Does that sound like a empowered membership?

Again and again, when I was an elected rep I asked the membership to provide direction.. I heard crickets chirping. What am I supposed to do? call each one up?

Again we can keep discussing but it always comes back to the disengaged, apathetic, cynical and aloof membership.

 

[CopilotDoug]

It is accurate to say that [ALPA] pilots function as independent contractors. They are concerned for thier individual well being.. not the collective.

Unfortunately, you're right. But this is where the leadership comes into play. Now you know what the membership wants...go get it and TAKE IT BACK! Everyone's expecting action, and then the heads turn around and say "It's easier said than done guys, we gotta play by the rules (which are created by the people we're rallying against). And by the way...it's going to be long, boring, and drawn out."

You've just proved my point. You see no value in the Rally, yet it was on the cover of the Money Section of Friday's USAToday.

And this implies what exactly? The Teamsters with the Auto Industry are getting alot of media too. The message is falling on deaf ears. If it was that big of a deal (not too imply it wasn't) why did ALPA not put out ballots and find out how many would attend? Should have done their research with there membership.

The individual and the collective are related and dependant on each other. But yet no one is willing to sacrifice thier individual time for the collective. Hence the ineffectiveness of unions...

Volunteer what? This would be a good start to advertise specifics.

What if 30,000 ALPA members where there? that would be a loud message. But only 100. So that means management thinks "hey, these union guys don't speak for the pilots. The pilots are happy with the status quo"

No...ALPA castrated themselves by "credibility" and "Playing by the rules". ALPA has set a precedent that they are here "to work with management and congress" Translation: ALPA is a House of Cards

The United pilots just got the door slammed in their face over the contract and trying to re-open it. Is Prater going to initiate and call on ALL of the other ALPA carriers to get involved in a Job Action such as a slow down, or is he going to let United get dragged into the alley behind a dumpster and get beat up by Tilton and his cronies?

And? Do pilots need a politican in Washington?

Just keep in mind, The House NEVER loses.

Look, the guy works 6 to 7 days a week.

Good...starve your dog and it will fight harder.

He just toured the country! What more do you want him to do!.

I want him to fix the problem, beside glad-handing and grand-standing. He stepped up to the plate, did he think his paycheck would come easy?

You are right, the probelm is that power is weak because it is not collected, concentrated and effective. I've been in LEC meetings with pilots sitting in the next room playing cards and socializing with FA's! Does that sound like a empowered membership?

Actually, why didn't you go in their and tell them to get their a$$es into the meeting?

Again and again, when I was an elected rep I asked the membership to provide direction.. I heard crickets chirping. What am I supposed to do? call each one up?

You should be taking your knowledge and using it to improve current conditions (Pay, Schedule, Benefits)

Again we can keep discussing but it always comes back to the disengaged, apathetic, cynical and aloof membership.

sounds alot like the rhetoric from CEO's "It's those dammed employees again!!!"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Unfortunately, you're right. But this is where the leadership comes into play. Now you know what the membership wants...go get it and TAKE IT BACK! Everyone's expecting action, and then the heads turn around and say "It's easier said than done guys, we gotta play by the rules (which are created by the people we're rallying against). And by the way...it's going to be long, boring, and drawn out."

So this is getting back to you wanting the leadership to "make a stand" and go to jail, like Hitler, Ghandi and MLK jr! Maybe Prater could write a book: "An Air Line Pilot in Prison!" that would instill consumer confidence..

And this implies what exactly? The Teamsters with the Auto Industry are getting alot of media too. The message is falling on deaf ears. If it was that big of a deal (not too imply it wasn't) why did ALPA not put out ballots and find out how many would attend? Should have done their research with there membership.Volunteer what? This would be a good start to advertise specifics.

There were Air Line Pilots in uniform in a full color picture in the Money Section of the USAToday. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

No...ALPA castrated themselves by "credibility" and "Playing by the rules". ALPA has set a precedent that they are here "to work with management and congress" Translation: ALPA is a House of Cards

So instead of empowering the leadership with membership participation, you want the weaken leadership to go radical? Sounds like you don't want to take very much repsonsibility in your career.

You've got a typical consumer service mentaility. I paid my money now I want my results!

The United pilots just got the door slammed in their face over the contract and trying to re-open it. Is Prater going to initiate and call on ALL of the other ALPA carriers to get involved in a Job Action such as a slow down, or is he going to let United get dragged into the alley behind a dumpster and get beat up by Tilton and his cronies?

Please provide a logical "cost benefit analysis" on doing a slow down. If you need references I'll provide one.

Just keep in mind, The House NEVER loses.

That is deep- you make chinese philosophers sound corney...

Good...starve your dog and it will fight harder.

You can't be this stupid. In fact I know you are not.

I want him to fix the problem, beside glad-handing and grand-standing. He stepped up to the plate, did he think his paycheck would come easy?
Actually, why didn't you go in their and tell them to get their a$$es into the meeting?

You are the kind of guy that would not offer a cold glass of water to the HVAC guys fixing your AC in the summer. In fact you'd say, "phcuk you, work harder, I'm hot and I want my AC fixed."

You should be taking your knowledge and using it to improve current conditions (Pay, Schedule, Benefits)

I did my best but I dind't know what the membership wanted. Then of course they complain when the actions of ALPA are not customized to thier liking.

sounds alot like the rhetoric from CEO's "It's those dammed employees again!!!"

Sounds like you need another hot dog while you sit in the stands and watch others play your career....

 

[CopilotDoug]

So this is getting back to you wanting the leadership to "make a stand" and go to jail, like Hitler, Ghandi and MLK jr! Maybe Prater could write a book: "An Air Line Pilot in Prison!" that would instill consumer confidence..

Yes, that is exactly what I said...go to Jail for the pilots...(layered with sarcasm)

There were Air Line Pilots in uniform in a full color picture in the Money Section of the USAToday. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

Yes...and just the other day I heard two ladies discussing it in the grocery check-out lanes.

So instead of empowering the leadership with membership participation, you want the weaken leadership to go radical? Sounds like you don't want to take very much repsonsibility in your career.

You do what you gotta do to get the point across that your pilot group is not going to take $hit from these management teams. Worst case scenario: are you willing to go on strike and potentially be unemployed to stand up for your profession? Because if you don't have your leaders re-iterating that message to the CEO's, they now hold the Fear Card and will use it to their advantage.

You've got a typical consumer service mentaility. I paid my money now I want my results!

If your plumber doesn't finish the job you pay him to do, do you toss your hands up and say "Something is better than nothing" ?

Please provide a logical "cost benefit analysis" on doing a slow down. If you need references I'll provide one.

Yeah, it hurts the company's bottom line. Now you have their attention.

That is deep- you make chinese philosophers sound corney...

I'm just saying that ALPA puts a whole lot of faith in congressional representation. And we know Big Business has a bigger stake in it than the pilots do.

You are the kind of guy that would not offer a cold glass of water to the HVAC guys fixing your AC in the summer. In fact you'd say, "phcuk you, work harder, I'm hot and I want my AC fixed."

Makes me feel like a REAL man

I did my best but I dind't know what the membership wanted.

Seriously??? What made you want to run for the position then?

Sounds like you need another hot dog while you sit in the stands and watch others play your career...

Like you said man, some people care about it, some people don't. It's the job of ALPA leaders to convince the membership they need to care about it and solidify as ONE group.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. It's the job of ALPA leaders to convince the membership they need to care about it and solidify as ONE group.

Your attitude and a major point of the problem is right here....

Is it your instructors responsibility to pass your check ride?



It is your responsbilty to manage your career....

You argue that the membership need not communicate and participate in the process yet the leadership should "do thy memberships will".

A real winner you are.....

It is attitudes likes yours that have eroded this profession. Its not that you are unique... this cancer has always been here and we'll continue to shoot ourselves in the foot....

 

[Freight Dog]

Doug, you need to understand that Rez is like a hippie. He doesn't believe in radical actions such as strikes, WOE campaigns. That is so mean and old school. He believes that pragmatic approach to the governmental and management abuses is the way to go while singing "All you need is love."

He has a difficult time grasping some simple applied leadership concepts, realizing that in order for the membership to develop any interest, leaders have to inspire, motivate, and lead. Dog and pony shows don't cut it. Actions do. But so far, our union is one big dog and pony show, and as such it doesn't inspire much when they start singing his pragmatic tune.

Rez... I watched "The Last Castle" yesterday during my commute home. I strongly recommend you watching that movie. Wanna know how you can motivate the membership? Right there in that movie... it's called leadership - a concept that ALPA can't grasp.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Doug, you need to understand that Rez is like a hippie. He doesn't believe in radical actions such as strikes, WOE campaigns. That is so mean and old school. He believes that pragmatic approach to the governmental and management abuses is the way to go while singing "All you need is love."

Rez, you need to realize Freight Dog is like a 3-year old. He thinks that all you have to do to get the other 3-year olds to give you their toys is to push them over or steal them. Laws and rules are things that apply to others. Anger means you can operate outside the law cuz you're one of the "good guys"...although you, naturally, expect everyone ELSE to comply.

He has a difficult time grasping some simple applied leadership concepts, realizing that in order for the membership to develop any interest, leaders have to inspire, motivate, and lead. Dog and pony shows don't cut it. Actions do. But so far, our union is one big dog and pony show, and as such it doesn't inspire much when they start singing his pragmatic tune.

He has a difficult time recognizing leadership. Sometimes it comes at him as directives that he just can't embrace, such as supporting political candidates that support us. Sometimes the leadership asks him to help by being an activist within the construct of the law...such as writing/calling legislators, or sending a check to a PAC focused on supporting our profession. His recognition failure sometimes comes from his belief that 100% of the objectives must fit within his vision...or there is no benefit to him following the leaders.

Rez... I watched "The Last Castle" yesterday during my commute home. I strongly recommend you watching that movie. Wanna know how you can motivate the membership? Right there in that movie... it's called leadership - a concept that ALPA can't grasp.

Wow! I watched "We Were Soldiers Once". An overly aggressive platoon leader chased an enemy unit too far, which led to the decimation of his platoon. The battalion commander wanted him to keep his platoon unified with the rest of the battlion. The bottom line is that the leader's mission changed from taking the fight to the enemy...to survival.

Sometimes leadership is trying to preserve as much as you can.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Doug and FD-

You keep banging your head on the wall insisting that reality is not right via your perspective. You can continue to demand that the rest of the union, industry, economy and world see things the way you want them too....

or you can figure out how the system works, become effective, learn to game it and maniplute it and get results...



How long are you going to wake up each day insisting that it is fubar all while spinning your wheels?

 

[Freight Dog]

Don't talk to me like that Occam, or I'm calling mommy!

In all seriousness, do you honestly believe that you will recover your losses by pragmatic means? Tell me... why should Steenland accept less money for his trust fund and reward you for your "sacrifice?" Think he'll do it just to be a nice guy? How about Tilton? Think UAL pilots will recover their losses by being pragmatic? Tilton smirked as UAL pilots threw their hats on the ground as he was walking by at their last BOD meeting.

Anger? You mean you're not angry over your pension being frozen, paycuts you've taken, longer hours you're working, while your big boss is getting millions in bonuses and stock? If you're not angry, perhaps you should donate some more of your paycheck, work a bit longer (those pesky FAR's getting in the way), and forget your retirement - you'll get 5 more years to slave away for Mr. Steeland's trust fund anyway.

One thing to add to your Freight Dog analysis - while he regularly writes and calls his congressional leadership with regards to various issues, most not directly related to our profession, he has lost confidence in his union leadership on the national level as they've proven once again that they are out of touch with the majority of the membership that they are elected to represent. As such, he refuses to send any money to ALPA-PAC. Instead, Freight Dog will rather add that money to his donations to IMSFF and TAPS.

Sometimes leadership is trying to preserve as much as you can.

How is that? We only preserve what the management let us preserve because our leadership has been castrated.

So what's the fix?

For ALPA - establishing an Orange Ribbon Panel to explore the concept of the outside of box thinking.

For Freight Dog - getting the hell out of this industry.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doug, you need to understand that Rez is like a hippie. He doesn't believe in radical actions such as strikes, WOE campaigns. That is so mean and old school. He believes that pragmatic approach to the governmental and management abuses is the way to go while singing "All you need is love."

He has a difficult time grasping some simple applied leadership concepts, realizing that in order for the membership to develop any interest, leaders have to inspire, motivate, and lead. Dog and pony shows don't cut it. Actions do. But so far, our union is one big dog and pony show, and as such it doesn't inspire much when they start singing his pragmatic tune.

Rez... I watched "The Last Castle" yesterday during my commute home. I strongly recommend you watching that movie. Wanna know how you can motivate the membership? Right there in that movie... it's called leadership - a concept that ALPA can't grasp.

Well said, Frieght Dog.

 

[CopilotDoug]

For Freight Dog - getting the hell out of this industry.

According the Rez and Occam...if all the pilots get different jobs and leave, this may just fix the problem. It'll get the dammed membership out of the way for the ALPA leaders!

...or you can figure out how the system works, become effective, learn to game it and maniplute it and get results...

So you're suggesting we take one big dysfunctional organization and get it all tangled up with the red tape of an even MORE dysfunctional system? Why don't the pilots just make their donations directly out to "Sen. Kennedy's Yacht Fund"?

Come on Cheech, try to think outside the box for a minute here. It'll feel good!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Don't talk to me like that Occam, or I'm calling mommy!

Good on ya! I appreciate your response. You understood my post wasn't a personal attack on you.

In all seriousness, do you honestly believe that you will recover your losses by pragmatic means? Tell me... why should Steenland accept less money for his trust fund and reward you for your "sacrifice?" Think he'll do it just to be a nice guy? How about Tilton? Think UAL pilots will recover their losses by being pragmatic? Tilton smirked as UAL pilots threw their hats on the ground as he was walking by at their last BOD meeting.

I don't mind Steenland getting restricted grants that are perfomance- and longevity-based. I understand that some F/A's resent the amount of money I'm paid for "sitting on my butt" while they're working in the back...so I try not to be a hypocrite about who-gets-paid-more. The element of the situation that irritates me is that his pay appears to be a reward for hammering us (along with the lenders, leasers, manufacturers, State of Minnesota, and other vendors and creditors). I think the folks at USBank, IFLC, and others that have been hammered resent his pay package too.

So yes, I will try to recover my losses by "pragmatic" means (assuming that means "within the law"). To do otherwise is not in my DNA.

Anger? You mean you're not angry over your pension being frozen, paycuts you've taken, longer hours you're working, while your big boss is getting millions in bonuses and stock? If you're not angry, perhaps you should donate some more of your paycheck, work a bit longer (those pesky FAR's getting in the way), and forget your retirement - you'll get 5 more years to slave away for Mr. Steeland's trust fund anyway.

"Angry"? Sure...I guess. But I don't allow it to guide my actions. Screaming out my anger at Pratt & Whitney in the middle of an engine failure at V1 is not the best way to focus on the task at hand. I love to play poker with my friends that allow their emotions to rule their actions. I always show them my cards when I bluff...knowing that their anger will drive them on future hands. Deal me a great hand after that and I'll jack the pot deeply into their kid's college fund!

If I'm angry for more than 10-minutes a day, I'm wasting my time.

One thing to add to your Freight Dog analysis - while he regularly writes and calls his congressional leadership with regards to various issues, most not directly related to our profession, he has lost confidence in his union leadership on the national level as they've proven once again that they are out of touch with the majority of the membership that they are elected to represent. As such, he refuses to send any money to ALPA-PAC. Instead, Freight Dog will rather add that money to his donations to IMSFF and TAPS.

I understand your frustration with ALPA. I get frustrated too. I also get frustrated with the actions of my government, and sometimes even the actions of my kids. But I haven't given up on any of them. I still do everything in my power to keep each of them on-track.

It's an intellectual choice.

We only preserve what the management let us preserve because our leadership has been castrated.

Disagree. I'll concede that management gets to play the white pieces, and sometimes gets to move three times to our one...but I'm not about to abandon a profession I love and am proud of just because a bunch of amoral nitwits thinks it's chump work.

I heard very little squawking about "leadership" when we were making huge strides in the late-90's and '00/'01. I recognize that not all victories are measured in turf gained. If I thought we had no chance of regaining what we had, I'd quit and work my other job full-time.

So what's the fix?

For ALPA - establishing an Orange Ribbon Panel to explore the concept of the outside of box thinking.

Well put!

I'm actually with you on that one. I'm disappointed in the "panel" process. I prefer more direct accountability. But just because I'd do things differently doesn't mean I won't help do them this way. That's because I still believe in trade unionism, and because I've been wrong before.

 

[Freight Dog]

Outstanding post!

Just a quick clarification:

"Pragmatic" means dialogue, begging, pleading, etc. anything but a strike or WOE...

If you ask Rez... he's opposed to any WOE action to get the attention of their management. They can bring that big inflatable rat in front of their airline HQ, and the executives will laugh at the dog and pony show because they know there is no meat behind that rat - just a show.

Strike? Heavens forbid we shut the company down! They're telling us we'll all be out of a job if that happens, yet nobody stops and thinks how much do the executives/shareholders stand to lose. That's a big bargaining chip.

Funny you should mention playing poker. I said it before, I'd love to play poker with ALPA National... they seem to fold every time someone ups the ante on them.

You also mention the 90's and 00 and 01. The difference between then and now are the corporate ethics and morals. For example, nowadays, retirees are only seen as a financial drain away from executive pay packages, and not as people who had built their companies. The executives running airlines today have evolved from being just greedy bastards, to morally and ethically-corrupt, ruthless greedy bastards, and we need to approach them as such. We need to evolve as well, and appeasing them is not how it's done.

 

[waveflyer]

I call a draw here- This has turned into which came first - leadership or support, chicken or egg.

I've always believed that leadership comes first.But it's not the Leaders- It's not the line pilots. It's the lack of a solvent PLAN!

You get a right plan and the support will be there. Unity will be there. But it's difficult to not be apathetic when all you've seen is failure. There's not a pilot in the world that doesn't care about what's happened and continuing to happen. But they know the current system isn't working- so why work to support it? (not my view either- but i get the argument)

I want no more apologies. No more concessions. From leaders to the most junior private pilot w/ an aspiration-- everybody get on board--- PILOTS GET PAID WHEREVER THEY TAKE A STAND.

Right now-Noone will ultimately take that stand when everyone has SO MUCH TO LOSE under our current seniority system. We created this original seniority system when major corporations didn't fail like they do today. When they didn't go into bankruptcy as easily. You don't have the support you want Occam b/c our seniority system doesn't allow it. Ultimately- we'll hate it- but we'll do whatever it takes to keep our number at our company and avoid starting from scratch somewhere else. Management knows this- they USE IT- and it cuts the legs out from every union MEC and LEC nationwide. With margins this slim- no matter how healthy the company is- we'll never get back what we need with the current 1940's system in place.

I'm not here to criticize ALPA- I'm here to support it along with all pilot unions. But instead of this crazy banter back and forth=- can someone find a SOLUTION?? A plan that will work- instead of what currently does not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You also mention the 90's and 00 and 01. The difference between then and now are the corporate ethics and morals. For example, nowadays, retirees are only seen as a financial drain away from executive pay packages, and not as people who had built their companies. The executives running airlines today have evolved from being just greedy bastards, to morally and ethically-corrupt, ruthless greedy bastards, and we need to approach them as such. We need to evolve as well, and appeasing them is not how it's done.

So we need to become morraly corrupt to deal with them?

What you don't seem to grasp is this country is set up in favor of business and against labor. IOW it is set up so the deck is stacked up against us.... and it has been this way since the late 1800's.

If you look at airline history the bad times far outweigh the good times. I am guessing that you, like me, expect more good times than bad. Well, like me, I am sorry you didn't do your due dillegence and review this career before you invested in it...

From another thread..

Great reading Rez... yet you still think it can be done by pragmatic means.

Well-intentioned, but very naive.

and your way is so effective that it is yielding positive results... oh wait.. your world is a ground hog day movie... the same stuff. You wake up, your world hasn't changed, everyone else is an idiot, the leadership suxs, you bang your head, go to bed and wake up again... rinse repeat....

I'm not here to criticize ALPA- I'm here to support it along with all pilot unions. But instead of this crazy banter back and forth=- can someone find a SOLUTION?? A plan that will work- instead of what currently does not.

A solution... there is no one stop shopping with express lane check out. However, on my shopping list is Membership Involvement.

I don't know why that is a so difficult for angry, fustrated, emotional guys like FD and Doug...oh wait never mind....

 

[waveflyer]

Rez-
that's dumb. Way too simplistic- leaders don't blame the membership. Come up with a plan worth following and you'll get your involvement.

I won't be all that involved for long if the plan continues to be terrible. All of us will swim the atlantic before we are willing to start all over at another company. Let me ask a specific question- how do you solve that problem? How can any of us have leverage while facing that reality?

 

[waveflyer]

Oh- and as far as the deck stacked against labor-- It'll be up to us to take it back-- Original ALPA pilots were far more repressed than us. I don't apologize for the membership anymore than the leadership- to me the x factor is a new system that will work, change, and be flexible in a more dynamic airline environment. If we are not willing to change-- we will continue to see pilots worlds turned upside down and continued losses. We have to come up with some kind of system that will allow changing of companies to be easier. To allow the failure of large companies that are inflated with costs and bad management without us having to bail them out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez-
that's dumb. Way too simplistic- leaders don't blame the membership. Come up with a plan worth following and you'll get your involvement.

Yet the membership blames the leadership. The leadership that they elected. Look if you don't like your leaddrs then put new ones in.

Come up with a plan. the plan is there. It is called politics. And the masses get noticed. Problem is we have a rally in WashDC and 100 guys out of 60,000 show up. You can't tell me that our pathetic level of membership particaption is good for unions.

I won't be all that involved for long if the plan continues to be terrible. All of us will swim the atlantic before we are willing to start all over at another company.

Yup and that is exaclty what they want... The new 20 year olds with stars in their eyes to show up and take like whores...

Let me ask a specific question- how do you solve that problem? How can any of us have leverage while facing that reality?

It seems to me when my first airline declared BK EVERYONE showed up at the LEC meeting...

Everyone is compalining about the status quo.. that something has to change. Someone has to do something... but yet they aren't willing to do jack themselves.... is that OK? Is that fundamentally sound?

 

[Occam's Razor]

"Pragmatic" means dialogue, begging, pleading, etc. anything but a strike or WOE...

You must use a different dictionary than I do...

If you ask Rez... he's opposed to any WOE action to get the attention of their management. They can bring that big inflatable rat in front of their airline HQ, and the executives will laugh at the dog and pony show because they know there is no meat behind that rat - just a show.

C'mon. You're bright enough to figure out what the rat is for! The media loves it...and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with employees demonstrating how they view their management? It's a rat...not enriched uranium! We're not trying to blow the place up!

Strike? Heavens forbid we shut the company down! They're telling us we'll all be out of a job if that happens, yet nobody stops and thinks how much do the executives/shareholders stand to lose. That's a big bargaining chip.

Have you been on strike?

I have.

I didn't think walking off my job in '98 was going to cost John Dasburg a lot of money or prestige. I did it only because all other efforts to get a fair contract failed. The law left me only that recourse.

Funny you should mention playing poker. I said it before, I'd love to play poker with ALPA National... they seem to fold every time someone ups the ante on them.

Ha! Ha! Ha! I'd love to play you. I don't think you quite understand ALPA National's role in our contract negotiations...but it reads well, so Party On, Garth!

The executives running airlines today have evolved from being just greedy bastards, to morally and ethically-corrupt, ruthless greedy bastards, and we need to approach them as such. We need to evolve as well, and appeasing them is not how it's done.

Yeah...you hear that about Lorenzo and Icahn a lot...they were greedy, but their morals and ethics were impeccable!

 

[Occam's Razor]

You get a right plan and the support will be there. Unity will be there. But it's difficult to not be apathetic when all you've seen is failure. There's not a pilot in the world that doesn't care about what's happened and continuing to happen. But they know the current system isn't working- so why work to support it? (not my view either- but i get the argument)

I'll assume you weren't in the profession in the 90's then. Perhaps a FDX pilot could post their latest contract "failure"?

I think your frame of reference needs to be expanded.

I want no more apologies. No more concessions. From leaders to the most junior private pilot w/ an aspiration-- everybody get on board--- PILOTS GET PAID WHEREVER THEY TAKE A STAND.

Pilots get better contracts when they have leverage. Period. Pilot groups have achieved big gains mid-contract from "pop-up" leverage.

I like your zeal.

You don't have the support you want Occam b/c our seniority system doesn't allow it.

Really? When did FDX change to an alphabetical assignment system? Do they go by height at SWA? That DAL contract in 2001 was achieved through their innovative use of SAT scores?

Here's an analogy: The commie hoard has invaded America, but you refuse to "unify" with your countrymen because the government raised postal rates one-too-many-times? What's a good excuse for giving up?

You and I agree on our value within this economy. So does Freight Dog, Rez, and every other pilot on this Forum. We sometimes disagree on the way issues are prioritized, and the method we should use to be fairly compensated for that value.

 

[waveflyer]

Occam- You have very intelligent responses. And sounds like you've been through a lot and have seen a lot. I'll yield to that. I understand that things are cyclical, and believe me- though i'm not at a major yet- there have been many that have suffered much more than me lately. I'm not a doom and gloom guy.

I began this industry in the late 90's. I don't view FedEx or SWA contracts as failures. I completely support unions. I just get frustrated at the lack of control I and everyone else has over their career-- and we set it up that way. I'm a capitalist, i want to work hard and make money myself and help my company succeed-- but i hate that i can't bail out on my company for another that i may be qualified for, that is doing a better job, has better management and a better plan- and one that may work better for me for my life- b/c i cannot afford to take the hit on seniority. I don't like that i am ultimately married to my company no matter what direction they may head- when noone else at the airline is half as invested.

I also find it strange that as conservative and capitalist as most pilots tend to be that we'd accept setting up our career in the most socialist way possible. I'm not saying get rid of the unions-NOT AT ALL, WE NEED THEM- and i'll concede that seniority solves many real problems for an operation-- but in the end how many excellent pilots lives are in effect ruined b/c of it? And for no fault of their own. Life's not fair and that happens- but it seems to happen a disproportionate amount of time in the flying business. Is there no hybrid way of doing it? Some way to not take such a huge hit to change companies? Is there no another solution?

I just want the conversation out there-- Maybe someone more brilliant than me will come up with something.

In the meantime-- I completely agree with you and Rez-- I have to work within the system that is there-- and work hard for everyone. There's no excuse not to be involved in your union. But again- groupthink- i think a lot of the leaders tend to circle the wagons against their own group-- "we work, volunteer, you don't- so your opinion does not matter..." That's an easy sentiment- but if you really want more participation you have to create ways for folks to volunteer easily and without huge time commitments- and then allow them to participate as little as they want or can. Once they get their feet wet- most will end up doing more than they thought they would. In the end, you only need so many chiefs-- the indians just have to vote the right way, correct?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez and Occam,

This is going to be a Cliff Notes response...

We are at a huge disadvantage to our opponents in that we can't transport our seniority... not even within a brand....

There isn't a single profession out there like ours where your longevity means nothing if you change employers........ Where else does a 20 year professional come on board like he just got out of college?

We are playing Poker against an opponent (that would be management) who has little to lose.... if he folds, and loses his position, he can start over at nearly the same place he left... in fact, if he changes to a non-airline management postion, he will probably get a raise...

Until we fix that, don't expect much to change.... I know I don't, you might want to lower your expectations accordingly.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Rez and Occam,

This is going to be a Cliff Notes response...

We are at a huge disadvantage to our opponents in that we can't transport our seniority... not even within a brand....

There isn't a single profession out there like ours where your longevity means nothing if you change employers........ Where else does a 20 year professional come on board like he just got out of college?

We are playing Poker against an opponent (that would be management) who has little to lose.... if he folds, and loses his position, he can start over at nearly the same place he left... in fact, if he changes to a non-airline management postion, he will probably get a raise...

Until we fix that, don't expect much to change.... I know I don't, you might want to lower your expectations accordingly.....

That's an excellent point, one of many that have been said on this subject.