Don't Become An Airline Pilot

[Fly2Scuba]

What I have learned in 30 years in this business and 11 jobs is live below your means because every job is temporary.

Which is partly why wages and working conditions should be higher than present. One way is to decrease the supply of pilots by discouraging less to get into this messed up career which this thread is trying to accomplish.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

This is from CNN Money: In other words for A Squared and TWA, making $80,000 in New York is about like making $40,000 in Saint Louis:

I had my own window office at a corporate firm in NYC making 80K/yr and let me tell you, it doesn't go very far even as a single guy. I didn't lead a lavish lifestyle either. The income taxes alone will kill you, let alone the expensive housing and sundry costs. I would lose ~3K every month in taxes ALONE.

 

[pilotyip]

Must be the water

1975 ?????? i was 6! :laugh:

And I was finishing up my 10 years in the Navy, my son who is also 6 became a pilot, was your dad in Vietnam when you were born?

 

[AirCobra]

A Squared,
Sure you can buy a house in Westchester for $400,000 and I could put a family of four in 1400 sf, pay $15,000 a year in taxes and have a lousy school district, or buy a $250,000 apartment in the Bronx and spend the day avoiding gunfire. That is not middle class living by anyones definition. I am not stupid. You can buy a trailer in the worst part of Memphis for $27,000 but that does not mean I would live there.

Someone said $14,000 a year is poverty wages. Well if $40,000 a year in Saint Lous is the equivalent of $80,000 a year in New York, divide $40,000 between a family of four, that is $10,000 per person in proportional wages. Well below the poverty line. A Fedex pilot in LA has to earn $30,000 more per year to have the same standard of he or she would if they lived in Memphis.

Your continued failure to understand cost of living in different part of the country is leading me to believe you are either very young, don't have to support anyone, or live in a very low cost area.

Something else to ponder. In 1998 a senior Captain for a major airline made $230,000 adjusted for inflation. Now they make $130,000 and that is after over 20 years of service. The median price of a home has gone from $104,000 to $210,000, gas costs three times as much, cars are a third more expensive. So the cost of everything has nearly doubled, yet pilot wages have gone down by half.

If you have a family of four and live near a major metropolitan area, you would know $80,000 does not go very far, and a number of people have told you that. Am I living beyond my means because I want to give each of my kids there own bedroom or I want to be able to put something away for both my retirement and their college education? Is my nine year old Toyota Camry living in luxury?

 

[AirCobra]

Westchester
$405,000
3 Bed, 1 Bath
1,020 Sq. Ft.
0.05 Acres



Queens Village
$225,000
1 Bed, 1 Bath
750 Sq. Ft.

I checked out what ASquared said about New York house prices on realtor.com. These were the first homes I found in the price range he gave.

Anyone want to put a family of four in 750 sq ft.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I sure hope after this week, those considering this profession really consider the economic realities.
Aloha Airlines, Champion Airlines, ATA Airlines, Skybus, and a third of Sun Country pilots are without a job. Most of the major airlines have stopped hiring, along with the regionals. Going 100 grand, even 50 grand in debt is something to seriously ponder when faced with these industry conditions.

 

[Long Time Gone]

You forgot Skyway. They also basically shut down yesterday. Last flight.

 

[N6069L]

I AM POOR AND IN DEBT DUE TO THE LOW SALARIES. I have been flying for a major for almost 3 years and was at a regional airline for 6 years prior. I HAVE NEVER MADE MORE THAN $80000 in one year.

I think I need to clarify a couple of things here. First off, by mentioning in debt I mean mortgage and nothing else. (and that is not some creative mortgage finance scheme for some thing that is unaffordable) Second, 80k is a lot of money, just not every where. Is it really this difficult to understand that some parts of the country are in fact a whole lot more expensive than others?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Ever think of money for retirement? Money in the bank for furlough protection? What if you are married and have kids. Husband or wife stays at home to raise children vs expensive day care. All I am saying is 80k isn't that much. Some of us don't want to rely on our goverment to take care of us. We want to have money in the bank and be responsible. Me wife yes, kids no so I have chosen to have more money in the bank.

Good points, AZpilot. I can sympathize with N6069L...$80k/yr won't get you far in the NE and whoever promotes commuting has most likely never done it. How far will that $80k/yr go if the company furloughs? To a starry-eyed student pilot, N6069L is living the dream. Pilots as a whole deserve better pay for the responsibility they handle. My first year out of school at a desk job and I pulled in over $50k. Pilots deserve more.

YIP, at the end of the day the tax man doesn't give two $hits whether or not you like your job, but you better have his money.

 

[pilotyip]

What does that have to do with anything?

YIP, at the end of the day the tax man doesn't give two $hits whether or not you like your job, but you better have his money.

Every time I have paid more taxes, it means I am making more money. That is a good deal. And to think I am still living my dream from 60 years ago. Being paid welll to do something I love, living close to an airport, going to the airport everyday to hang around and talk airplanes. BTW Thewre is also a place close by called the "Wedge" where I can drink cheap beer and talk airplanes

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Every time I have paid more taxes, it means I am making more money. That is a good deal. And to think I am still living my dream from 60 years ago. Being paid welll to do something I love, living close to an airport, going to the airport everyday to hang around and talk airplanes. BTW Thewre is also a place close by called the "Wedge" where I can drink cheap beer and talk airplanes

Yea, and how much was flight training back then? How much did a house cost let alone the general cost of living. Even adjusting for inflation, it bet was much, much cheaper. 100+ grand debt for a job that won't pay 80 grand until at least 5 years later is a terrible trade off. And who knows what the future holds with the latest oil related airline cut backs.

 

[learflyer]

I AM POOR AND IN DEBT DUE TO THE LOW SALARIES. I have been flying for a major for almost 3 years and was at a regional airline for 6 years prior. I HAVE NEVER MADE MORE THAN $80000 in one year.

I think I need to clarify a couple of things here. First off, by mentioning in debt I mean mortgage and nothing else. (and that is not some creative mortgage finance scheme for some thing that is unaffordable) Second, 80k is a lot of money, just not every where. Is it really this difficult to understand that some parts of the country are in fact a whole lot more expensive than others?

80,000? must be nice. I take it you live no where near the east coast?

 

[pilotyip]

Free

Yea, and how much was flight training back then? How much did a house cost let alone the general cost of living. Even adjusting for inflation, it bet was much, much cheaper. 100+ grand debt for a job that won't pay 80 grand until at least 5 years later is a terrible trade off. And who knows what the future holds with the latest oil related airline cut backs.

Took a 40 question test on FARs' passed was given a SEL/MEL Comm inst rating at no cost. But I did spend $243 to get my ATP in Grumman Tiger back i n1978.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Every time I have paid more taxes, it means I am making more money. That is a good deal. And to think I am still living my dream from 60 years ago. Being paid welll to do something I love, living close to an airport, going to the airport everyday to hang around and talk airplanes. BTW Thewre is also a place close by called the "Wedge" where I can drink cheap beer and talk airplanes

YIP...my point is that it's a job. Too many people have said what you've said...and taken a paycut to do it. After the honeymoon wears off, it's ALL about the paycheck.

And with today's pay and lack of company funded retirements, we're going to need an age 75 policy here soon.

You've been around the block once or twice...don't try and pass it off to the under-educated as a bouquet of roses.

 

[ozpilot]

it's ALL about the paycheck.

If its all about the paycheck maybe your in the wrong profession. Pilotyip may have "been around the block" but hes right when he says

And to think I am still living my dream from 60 years ago. Being paid welll to do something I love, living close to an airport, going to the airport everyday to hang around and talk airplanes.

I can't help but agree. Have we forgotten why we became pilots? When my dad writes to me he always prefixes my name with "Cpt.". Until recently my wife earned way more money than I did, and yet when we get together with her corporate cronies everyone wants to talk to the "pilot".

Like pilotyip I still enjoy hanging out at the local field breathing in aviation.

Like BoyCaptain I'm also enjoying 3 weeks off. But I'm looking forward to going back to work and have no plans to retire at 55!

 

[pilotyip]

Need a paycheck

YIP...my point is that it's a job. Too many people have said what you've said...and taken a paycut to do it. After the honeymoon wears off, it's ALL about the paycheck.

And with today's pay and lack of company funded retirements, we're going to need an age 75 policy here soon.

You've been around the block once or twice...don't try and pass it off to the under-educated as a bouquet of roses.

Of course every job is about a pay check, and many have taken a pay cuts to do it. You need to be paid to work. But it is still among the highest paying jobs in the country. Few people have been beat up in their career as I have. I have gotten out of aviation a couple times, I keep coming back because I like doing it and to be paid to do something you like is something a lot of people will never experience. BTW I have always made more money in the flying business than I did running my own business or teaching school.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If its all about the paycheck maybe your in the wrong profession.

Nope...right where I'm supposed to be.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Of course every job is about a pay check, and many have taken a pay cuts to do it. You need to be paid to work. But it is still among the highest paying jobs in the country. With an asterisk: How long do you have to eat crow at the Regional level before you begin to get paid decent money? Even when you do start making decent money, how long does it take to overcome the years of eating crow (establishing a retirement?) Few people have been beat up in their career as I have. I have gotten out of aviation a couple times, I keep coming back because I like doing it and to be paid to do something you like is something a lot of people will never experience. I don't disagree...but you'd be doing a disservice to those you come across if you did not give them the pros and cons of aviation. Alot of new pilots with no industry experience to draw from walk into aviation like a prop: they never see it coming. And it's a rude awakening for alot.

 

[pilotyip]

But I don't have to.

I don't have to discuss the down side of a flying career, althought I may be an expert with my expereinces, because it is fully covered on this site. Someone has to give the "I like my job" side BTW I think my tag line says it all.

 

[Snapshot]

I AM POOR AND IN DEBT DUE TO THE LOW SALARIES

I think I need to clarify a couple of things here. First off, by mentioning in debt I mean mortgage and nothing else.

These two statements contradict each other. The average American household has over $8000 in high interest credit card debt in addition to student loans and loans for flashy vehicles. If you honestly have NOTHING more than your mortgage, you are WAY AHEAD of the game. Mortgage is the only "debt" you get to live in and one of the rare "debts" that appreciates.

I'm trying to decide which is more weak and lame. Someone who can't control their own finances and seeks the pity of those less fortunate or someone who is doing just fine and seeks the pity of those less fortunate. Either way, you certainly take the cake.

You are either lying about your actual financial situation or a drama queen that needs people to feel sorry for you.

 

[AirCobra]

These two statements contradict each other. The average American household has over $8000 in high interest credit card debt in addition to student loans and loans for flashy vehicles. If you honestly have NOTHING more than your mortgage, you are WAY AHEAD of the game. Mortgage is the only "debt" you get to live in and one of the rare "debts" that appreciates.

I'm trying to decide which is more weak and lame. Someone who can't control their own finances and seeks the pity of those less fortunate or someone who is doing just fine and seeks the pity of those less fortunate. Either way, you certainly take the cake.

You are either lying about your actual financial situation or a drama queen that needs people to feel sorry for you.

Where have you been? Homes have not been appreciating in most parts of the country. In Vegas, Florida, and California they have lost 30% of their value, with an average loss of 10-15% everywhere else. Let me explain how that works: Three years ago you got that dream job with Aloha in Hawaii. You moved your family over and bought that tiny $600,000 ranch at the boom in the housing market which is all you could afford on FO wages. Now your airline is gone. You can't afford to live in Hawaii so you need to sell your place. Lucky you and your wife put about $30,000 in improvements so you hope it sells quickly. Get with the realtor. She says your house is worth $480,000. That means to sell your house, including commissions, you will need to come up with $150,000 even if you get full asking price. That much money is enough to wipe most peoples retirement savings. Now repeat this scenario with any number of pilots who lost their jobs this month. The only way to avoid this is to have bought a house where the values did not go down. Most of those places are in the Northeast which means your are paying a much greater percentage of you salary for your mortgage. Do you understand now how easy it is for a regular airline guy to suddenly be $150,000 in debt? THis has nothing to do with not being able to control your finances.

 

[pilotyip]

That is why living near KYIP is a good deal, new hire DA-20 F/O's can buy a new home on first day wages. 1100 sq ft condo 90K,

 

[CopilotDoug]

I'm trying to decide which is more weak and lame. Someone who can't control their own finances and seeks the pity of those less fortunate or someone who is doing just fine and seeks the pity of those less fortunate. Either way, you certainly take the cake.I don't think he was seeking pity, just attempting to educate those without any close experience to draw from about the real world and his aviation experience.

 

[TWA]

Aircobra, I see your point, but this guy didn't (as far as anyone here knows) lose his job. If your house loses a large percentage of its value, or you are getting it from behind in rising interest rates, you can always refinance. This guy is way ahead of the power curve as far as debt goes.

 

[CopilotDoug]

That is why living near KYIP is a good deal, new hire DA-20 F/O's can buy a new home on first day wages. 1100 sq ft condo 90K,

You can't compare USA jet to a regional...Regional pay sucks anyway you cut it. I have flown with a few pilots (about 5 or 6) furloughed from various mainline carriers and not one will go back to their respective carrier. One of the few professions where years of experience don't equate to higher pay if you find yourself out of a job. Combine that with today's instability and you could be playing Musical Chairs for the rest of your career.

 

[AirCobra]

TWA,
You can't always refinance. Loan criteria has really tightened up and fewer lenders are offering refinace options. Value of homes is also less and interest rates are higher, so if you can refinance there is really no benefit.

 

[Snapshot]

Now your airline is gone.

This guy still has his job. If you remember he's pulling in $80K a year.

The only way to avoid this is to have bought a house where the values did not go down. Most of those places are in the Northeast

He does live in the Northeast.

This has nothing to do with not being able to control your finances.

Yes it does.

Where have you been?

I've been on this thread, discussing this guy's situation. I'm not sure where the guy who lost his job and has a house in Hawaii you're looking for is, but he's not here.

 

[N6069L]

I'm glad it's not just me...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727702,00.html

 

[satpak77]

Yes we all love to fly airplanes there is no questions about it, but let me tell you from a 757 FO’s perspective for a major airline. I AM POOR AND IN DEBT DUE TO THE LOW SALARIES. I have been flying for a major for almost 3 years and was at a regional airline for 6 years prior. I HAVE NEVER MADE MORE THAN $80000 in one year. And what's even worse is that working for an airline (believe me ANY AIRLINE) you are surrounded by very much negativity that you will also become very negative yourself. I've tried everything to try to stay positive but this has become impossible. If you consider this career, please do your research thoroughly and ask airline pilots about what they REALLY think of their job and do take their answers into consideration. Watch this you tube video and you will be humiliated even if you are not a pilot!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

The major airline pilot job is not what it used to be. Many friends of mine have been in that airline career path grinder that churns souls, marriages, and sanity. If I was born again, I would have become a lawyer or gone into computer science/etc, and owned by own airplane for fun. It is not the same career it used to be.

Best of luck to those still in the pursuit, and my hat is off to those guys who ended up at FedEx, SWA, etc type companies. More power to you.

 

[bushrat]

Looks to me like this thread is a debate between those who "live to fly" and those who "fly to live".