Does anybody read the AIM anymore?

[HSDriver]

Just Land

The most dangerous guys are the ones that want to "fly the pattern and check for traffic, wind sock etc..." WTF? Fly a straight in and put the Jet on the ground! 200k and 80K don't mix well in the pattern so the least amount of time flopping around the pattern at an uncontrolled airport in a jet is the best approach...

HS

 

[old*art]

I have seen this discussion before, and understand if the phrase is used without a position report. But I have never understood the problem using it with a position report to prod weekenders into letting us know they are there - especially with my geriatric set down in Florida. And I will take exception to your not flying the pattern. Overhead an uncontrolled airport in the NW we discovered extensive not NOTAM'd construction. We would have had a lot of dead end taxiing had we not surveyed the place first. And AWOS is a trend indicator .. wind socks don't lie.

 

[NJAPLT]

Picking up a clearance won't shut down an airport for inbound or outbound traffic unless a 'release' is given.. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.. I pick up a clearance all the time than go back into the FBO.. Getting a clearance, than being told 'hold for release, will clear airspace for a departure, or make room for an arrival..

Yeah, just getting a clearance won't close the airport for ifr, as long as you are not released. That's why I ask for a hold for release clearance, so I can get the box programed, and be ready for the passengers so we can load up and go. What I was talking about is the guy who gets the clearance AND is released, then goes inside to wait for passengers, fuel, etc.

I guess a better rant should have been at the guy picks up a Release and then goes inside the fbo to eat a sandwich.

If I am at the end of the runway, number one, ready, then I'll just call for my ifr clearance, get the plane's fms and radios set up, and blast off. If I am sitting on the ramp, I'll call and tell atc I'm looking for a hold for release clearance, so they don't issue me the clearance and expect me to pop up on radar in a minute or two.

It really comes down to the assumption the controller makes when they hear an aircraft call for a clearance. In areas where there is poor radar coverage, lots of traffic, etc, then they tend to almost always issue hold for release clearances. In areas where radar coverage is good, and traffic is not heavy, controllers tend to either issue a void times, or sometimes just release the traffic as soon as they call.

Needless to say, if the controller assumes the plane calling is ready, and issues the "readback correct, report airborne you are released" in the one transmission then the plane sits for an hour waiting for passengers it causes problems. (It may even start SAR operations in the worse case.)

After a controller has been bit in the butt enough times, they tend to either ask if you are number one ready to go, or just issue a five to ten minute void time.

Before I worked for NetJets, I was flying for a regional airliner into North Platte, Nebraska, and an Execjet did just that, picked up a clearance, was told report airborne (controller did not issue a hold for release, or a void time, and the pilot did not tell atc that he was waiting for passengers.) I needed an ILS approach due to a small 50 foot thick cloud layer with 2000 foot base. I wound up holding for 45 minutes, and was 5 minutes away from diverting to another airport. The whole time the controller is getting pissed that this guy hadn't blasted off yet, and kept asking me to contact the unicom for her and find out if the jet was still on the fbo ramp.
After finding out from the fbo that the jet hadn't moved, the engines were not running, it alleviated my concern this jet had crashed on takeoff, but atc still could not let me fly the ils inbound, as she couldn't take the fbo's word about the plane still on the ground. Needless to say I was calling the fbo and trying to get them to find the pilots and get them back on the radio. I think that by the time the execjet finally called up because the fbo told him atc was looking for them the stack had grown to 3 or 4 planes all holding due to this guy.

Oh and to add insult to injury, when I went to pick up my IFR clearance (number one at the end of the runway) I was told that the same execjet had called number one short of the runway, been released and I would get my clearance when he showed up any second on atc radar. Then I heard his call sign on unicom, BEHIND ME asking for me to move out of his way so he could taxi on the runway to take off.

I have never been so tempted in my life to just set the parking brake and block this guy from taking off for 1/2 hour or so to teach him a lesson. I didn't, but boy was I tempted.

Somehow several years later now I'm working for Netjets, funny how things work out. I am very careful to make sure that I don't accidently get released until I actually can use it, if a controller is unwilling it issue a hold for release clearance, I will ask at least ask him what routing I can expect so I can load the box, I have never been turned down for that info when I ask.

 

[old*art]

Not to hijack the thread, but do not be too quick to help the departing guy on the ground out if you are circling by canceling in the air. If it is less that VFR you could get nailed. Also should you have to go missed you are no longer in the system.

 

[hammer2]

Get cleared for the published approach. When I fly into HTO, I say whatever I it takes to get in.

 

[Sparse]

Hey Net jets guys: One of your finest was heard recently using unprofessional radio phraseology not once but six times inbound to a non-towered airport. No one ever answered him but everyone within 100 miles on 122.7 got to listen to his amateur transmissions.

Please read and heed: Any traffic in the area please advise....... ugh

Aim chapter 4-1-9-g1


g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General.Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

Maybe you should review 4-9-1a

1. There is no substitute for alertness while in the vicinity of an airport. It is essential that pilots be alert and look for other traffic and exchange traffic information when approaching or departing an airport without an operating control tower.


I will continue to ask other aircraft to advise their presence at an uncontrolled airport. Seems like common sense to me.

 

[RNObased]

Hey Net jets guys: One of your finest was heard recently using unprofessional radio phraseology not once but six times inbound to a non-towered airport. No one ever answered him but everyone within 100 miles on 122.7 got to listen to his amateur transmissions.

Please read and heed: Any traffic in the area please advise....... ugh

Aim chapter 4-1-9-g1


g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General.Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

So you are busting the guys balls over basically phraseology. Did it get the point across and did anyone fall out of the sky because of it??? Move past it.

If you want to hear bad radio work, just listen to the VLJs. I listened one yammer on for two minutes about changing altitudes the other day. Painful.

 

[RNObased]

the worst is the jet on a 17 mile final. heard from another NJA jet into TRK

Actually talk to the airport board etc at TRK and they would prefer a straight in to 28 for noise reasons. I do it all the time and will continue to do it, sorry you don't like it. Plus it keeps you out of the mess of bug smashers over the Truckee area.

 

[acaTerry]

Dumb is a dumb does.

...and types...

 

[acaTerry]

the worst is the jet on a 17 mile final. heard from another NJA jet into TRK

Do you have ANY F-ing clue? 17 miles at jet speeds goes by pretty fast. Assume 220 kts, thats just over 4 minutes. Oh but that's like your 152 calling a 5 mile final. Don't forget we are usually "dumped" by ATC to your small airports at the last minute.
You made an a$$ of yourself with this post.