Does anybody read the AIM anymore?

[Amish RakeFight]

Yeah, just getting a clearance won't close the airport for ifr, as long as you are not released. That's why I ask.....

Good story/post, NJAPLT.

 

[fischman]

The most dangerous guys are the ones that want to "fly the pattern and check for traffic, wind sock etc..." WTF? Fly a straight in and put the Jet on the ground! 200k and 80K don't mix well in the pattern so the least amount of time flopping around the pattern at an uncontrolled airport in a jet is the best approach...

HS

I do agree that there is a big difference between 80 kts and 200 kts. That is why jets have a traffic pattern 500 ft above props.

As to the rest, I have to disagree. What is more dangerous? Plowing in, making everyone else get out of YOUR way, and landing?

Or is it more dangerous to overfly the field, taking a look at the windsock, checking the condition of the runway (deer, water, ice, another aircraft, etc...), entering a traffic pattern that everyone expects and knows where to look, getting into an orderly line with the rest of the traffic, and then landing?

You tell me. Which one is more unsafe? I think your method of plowing in is.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Come on, Fischman, you know as well as I do that Ultras and 152s fly the pattern at the same speed - sure makes it easy to fit in!

 

[gutshotdraw]

The most dangerous guys are the ones that want to "fly the pattern and check for traffic, wind sock etc..." WTF? Fly a straight in and put the Jet on the ground! 200k and 80K don't mix well in the pattern so the least amount of time flopping around the pattern at an uncontrolled airport in a jet is the best approach...

HS

Please tell me you're not serious.

At an untowered (FAA doesn't call them uncontrolled) field, you'd better fly the appropriate pattern and not just bomb straight in. 200 knots and 80 knots mix fine when the piston is at 1000 AGL and the turbine is at 1500 AGL (LIKE THE AIM SAYS). The only time you should be straight in at an untowered airport is when completing an instrument approach. And yes, if the wrong guy is watching, you WILL be violated for careless and reckless operation if flying a visual approach using something other than AIM standard pattern entry appropriate to the field.

 

[hammer2]

I like to come up initial at 200 kias, break over the runway if clear of traffic, if not I will continue to the outside , and go all the way around, whoops different world. Sorry.

 

[finnjl]

I see no problem with the any traffic please advise....accompanied with your position report on the initial call sounds like a good idea to me regaurdless of the AIM....the AIM is only a recommendation not a FAR....just for info.

It is different in a jet as you are slowing to 200 KIAS usually monitoring two radios, approach and the CTAF and you want to know who is at the airport the time you make your call so you can figure out how to fit into the pattern. In a Cessna you have been monitoring the CTAF the last 5 or 10 minutes and have a pretty good idea what is going on. It is kind of like jumping into the middle of a conversation you want to get caught up with everything that is going on. The guy who started this thread is probably a new flight instructor as they are typically up to speed with trival yet sometimes dangerous changes in the AIM.

And the guy complaing about guys getting their clearance. Getting the clearance with a hold for release does not block the airspace. When you have customers that are paying good money you want to get the plane as ready as you can and getting the clearance facilitates that process. If your lucky maybe you will understand one day.

 

[fischman]

Come on, Fischman, you know as well as I do that Ultras and 152s fly the pattern at the same speed - sure makes it easy to fit in!

Ahhh... The Ultramatic Scenic Cruiser...

 

[NJAPLT]

And the guy complaing about guys getting their clearance. Getting the clearance with a hold for release does not block the airspace. When you have customers that are paying good money you want to get the plane as ready as you can and getting the clearance facilitates that process. If your lucky maybe you will understand one day.

I will clarify again (for the second time?) I have a problem with the guys who pick up their clearance WITHOUT a hold for release and are not ready. I hate it when an aircraft picks up the clearance and atc gives the release right away, (for example after the readback), then the pilot doesn't bother to tell atc that they will be 45 minutes before they actually reach the end of the runway to depart. By the time atc gets ahold of this guy to cancel his IFR release, about 5 or 6 planes are all holding at the outer marker.

You know finnji, maybe you should read the posts again before you make smart *** comments. Maybe one day if you are lucky you will understand too.

P.S. Look at my username, I'm sure you can figure out that I have been around the block and deal with passengers and customer service on a regular basis too.

 

[old*art]

Cut finnji some slack ... he was late to the conversation and forgot to ask "any previous points made on this subject please advise" ....

 

[fischman]

Cut finnji some slack ... he was late to the conversation and forgot to ask "any previous points made on this subject please advise" ....

BBBWWWAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!

 

[NJAPLT]

Cut finnji some slack ... he was late to the conversation and forgot to ask "any previous points made on this subject please advise" ....

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Singlecoil]

Personally, I see the guy's point.
There have been many Sunday afternoons when it is hard enough to get a word in edgewise on a busy CTAF that several airports within radio range are sharing.
Then someone blows in, announces "any traffic in the area please advise" then what? Dead silence. Anybody in the pattern is waiting for someone else to talk, anybody at a different airport hoping to use the frequency has to wait for you to get it all sorted out.
You have two radios. One is on center, the other is switched to CTAF ten minutes from destination. That will give you plenty of time to build a mental picture of how busy the airport is, where the traffic is, and how you can work with the sequence. Situational awareness.

Why is this particular issue addressed in the AIM and categorized as something not to do? Are the people who write the AIM just a bunch of 152 drivers who can't walk in the shoes of a jet jock? Or was the issue looked into and was it resolved that the self-announce idea works if everyone with a radio follows procedure?

 

[rettofly]

[

P.S. Look at my username, I'm sure you can figure out that I have been around the block and deal with passengers and customer service on a regular basis too.[/quote]

A questuion leaps to mind: How many NJA pilots does it take to change a light bulb?
One. He/she holds the bulb while the world revolves around them.

Give me a break!!

 

[old*art]

My experience has been that it irked someone in the past and their thought was "if I am ever in a position to change this, I WILL". That is how SAV got changed from Travis Field to Savannah Muni. The airport manager was a marine aviator who got lost one day, saw an airport below, called on guard and was told he was over Travis Field. Scared him to death thinking he was in California. He swore he would change it if he ever had the chance. Heard him tell the story in the ANG bar there.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The problem with making this announcement over CTAF at an untowered field is that not all aircraft have comm radios. Something to keep in mind. Not receiving any response from "traffic," you might have a false sense of security. It all boils down to see and avoid below the flight levels.

Also, if there are numerous targets in the area, are you expecting all of them to chime in for every freakin plane that happens to make that request? Truthfully, this all amounts to a roundabout way of determining conflicting traffic. The poor mans self-announce is to demand that all in the pattern fess up their positions? It seems logical that everyone should just make thier standard calls and listen up.

 

[Guitar rocker]

The problem with making this announcement over CTAF at an untowered field is that not all aircraft have comm radios. .

True, but a lot of them do though.

Again, nobody is saying that when you say, "please advise," that this phrase makes you exempt from see and avoid. Perhaps that phraseology isnt recommended by the AIM anymore but if someone says that out of habit from years of flying, isnt that pilot simply trying to be more safe by asking who else may be in the pattern that he/she isnt aware of? Whats the big deal here?

 

[DO-82 driver]

How about...."Is there anyone in the Freaking pattern at Smalltown Airport?....If so, get the helll out of the way, I'm a jet and I eat small planes for breakfast"

That might get someone's attention and you're not even asking anyone to "Please advise"/

 

[bluefishbeagle]

Try doing that in BHB....the guy down there loves to rat people out for just that one scenario. If he does and radar shows you turning from a base leg other than whats required for that airport, thats all she wrote. Can we still tell the feds that we heard "it" from Mr. Wright and were good to go?

If you turn final three miles or more from the runway you are making a straight in and are not flying a "pattern". This comes directly from the feds..

 

[bluefishbeagle]

Maybe you should review 4-9-1a


I will continue to ask other aircraft to advise their presence at an uncontrolled airport. Seems like common sense to me.

Hey don't kill the messenger, I didn't write the AIM.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

So you are busting the guys balls over basically phraseology. Did it get the point across and did anyone fall out of the sky because of it??? Move past it.

If you want to hear bad radio work, just listen to the VLJs. I listened one yammer on for two minutes about changing altitudes the other day. Painful.

My point is professionalism is out the window these days, hell use what ever phase turns you on "good buddy".