Does anybody read the AIM anymore?

[bluefishbeagle]

Personally, I see the guy's point.
There have been many Sunday afternoons when it is hard enough to get a word in edgewise on a busy CTAF that several airports within radio range are sharing.
Then someone blows in, announces "any traffic in the area please advise" then what? Dead silence. Anybody in the pattern is waiting for someone else to talk, anybody at a different airport hoping to use the frequency has to wait for you to get it all sorted out.
You have two radios. One is on center, the other is switched to CTAF ten minutes from destination. That will give you plenty of time to build a mental picture of how busy the airport is, where the traffic is, and how you can work with the sequence. Situational awareness.

Why is this particular issue addressed in the AIM and categorized as something not to do? Are the people who write the AIM just a bunch of 152 drivers who can't walk in the shoes of a jet jock? Or was the issue looked into and was it resolved that the self-announce idea works if everyone with a radio follows procedure?

Amen you got da picture bro.

 

[Diesel]

Man i forgot about boca without a tower. That place was a mess. At least it was jets merging. The final looked like MEM during the inbound sort at FDX

 

[CA1900]

If you turn final three miles or more from the runway you are making a straight in and are not flying a "pattern". This comes directly from the feds..

I'd like to see that in writing.

 

[RNObased]

My point is professionalism is out the window these days, hell use what ever phase turns you on "good buddy".

So you are making a judgement call about the guy's professionalism from listening to one radio call?? You must be one hell of a pilot to be able to do that. Pretty narrow minded though.

Did you hear his TO briefing, or the way he dealt with his passengers, or the multitude of other things that he would do during the course of one flight that would probably make him professional in most people's eyes.

I don't know how much time you spend, or have spent flying jets, but the phaseology that is used EVERY single day all over the airways of the US is loosely based on the AIM. People aren't quoting the thing chapter and verse, if this bugs you then you don't have much else to worry about.

I will use whatever phrases I want, I doubt you will be above FL180 to hear most of my chatter anyway, so it shouldn't bother you.

 

[HSDriver]

Please tell me you're not serious.

At an untowered (FAA doesn't call them uncontrolled) field, you'd better fly the appropriate pattern and not just bomb straight in. 200 knots and 80 knots mix fine when the piston is at 1000 AGL and the turbine is at 1500 AGL (LIKE THE AIM SAYS). The only time you should be straight in at an untowered airport is when completing an instrument approach. And yes, if the wrong guy is watching, you WILL be violated for careless and reckless operation if flying a visual approach using something other than AIM standard pattern entry appropriate to the field.

Yes I am serious,

Regardless of different pattern altitudes, our paths eventually have to cross when our destination is the pavement at field elevation. I will use the shortest distance to the runway, whether it be a downwind entry, crosswind entry, or straight in, whichever can be made with left turns if appropriate. And no, I'm not going to plow in and cut everybody off. I stand by my statement that the least amount of time in the pattern is safest.

HS

 

[Guitar rocker]

So you are making a judgement call about the guy's professionalism from listening to one radio call?? You must be one hell of a pilot to be able to do that. Pretty narrow minded though.

Did you hear his TO briefing, or the way he dealt with his passengers, or the multitude of other things that he would do during the course of one flight that would probably make him professional in most people's eyes.

I don't know how much time you spend, or have spent flying jets, but the phaseology that is used EVERY single day all over the airways of the US is loosely based on the AIM. People aren't quoting the thing chapter and verse, if this bugs you then you don't have much else to worry about.

I will use whatever phrases I want, I doubt you will be above FL180 to hear most of my chatter anyway, so it shouldn't bother you.

Well said. Blue beagle, instead of worrying about what others say on the radio and telling us all what the AIM has to say, dont you have some homework or yardwork that you could be doing? I'll bet if you had a girlfriend you wouldnt be wasting your time with looking up what the AIM says about verbage now would you....you would be hittin it. Just put the AIM down, step away and relax son. And remember, it is anything that you say that can and will be held against you.........

 

[bluefishbeagle]

I will use whatever phrases I want, I doubt you will be above FL180 to hear most of my chatter anyway, so it shouldn't bother you.

Go ahead junior say and do what you want, I don't care if you pee your pants and sit in it all day; I don't have to fly with you.

Calling "any traffic in the area please advise" once is bad enough but to do it six times inbound is something even a student pilot wouldn't do. Correct phraseology’s purpose is to minimize congestion on the frequency so everyone can announce their position.

Enjoy yourself up there above FL180 but when you come down to my territory act like a professional.

(By the way if you haven't been above FL 600 you don't have anything to brag about to me).

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yes I am serious,

Regardless of different pattern altitudes, our paths eventually have to cross when our destination is the pavement at field elevation. I will use the shortest distance to the runway, whether it be a downwind entry, crosswind entry, or straight in, whichever can be made with left turns if appropriate. And no, I'm not going to plow in and cut everybody off. I stand by my statement that the least amount of time in the pattern is safest.

HS

Then I hope your AOPA legal insurance is paid up. Let me know the next time you're going to be using an untowered field in the southwest and I'll have my former co-worker from the local FSDO drop by with his note pad......

 

[finnjl]

there sure are a lot of bored pilots on the road

I am one too as I actually posted on this board about work stuff

 

[JohnnyP]

...

I like how in the back and forth attacks in this thread (and others), everyone feels the need to call the other one, "junior" or "son", just to make sure that the other guy and everyone else knows he is not as "seasoned and salty" as his attacker.........

 

[IFLYHI]

Please tell me you're not serious.

At an untowered (FAA doesn't call them uncontrolled) field, you'd better fly the appropriate pattern and not just bomb straight in. 200 knots and 80 knots mix fine when the piston is at 1000 AGL and the turbine is at 1500 AGL (LIKE THE AIM SAYS). The only time you should be straight in at an untowered airport is when completing an instrument approach. And yes, if the wrong guy is watching, you WILL be violated for careless and reckless operation if flying a visual approach using something other than AIM standard pattern entry appropriate to the field.

If you're going to give someone a hard time about his phraseology, you better make sure you get it right yourself!!! I don't think the FAA has ever used the term "untowered", and they have used the term uncontrolled in the past. I can find references to "non-towered", which is what I think you were trying to say. Anyway, enough of that...

While the AIM is a useful document, it is not the only document we should be referencing. I did a quick search and found AC90-66A. Among other things, it says:
"The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Therefore, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times to aircraft executing straight-in approaches."

I believe the FAA's current stance on straight in approaches is that while they don't specifically condone them, they recognize that they may be "operationally advantageous" for some operations.

Greg

 

[dime line]

I like how in the back and forth attacks in this thread (and others), everyone feels the need to call the other one, "junior" or "son", just to make sure that the other guy and everyone else knows he is not as "seasoned and salty" as his attacker.........

Ok slick.....

 

[RNObased]

Go ahead junior say and do what you want, I don't care if you pee your pants and sit in it all day; I don't have to fly with you.

Calling "any traffic in the area please advise" once is bad enough but to do it six times inbound is something even a student pilot wouldn't do. Correct phraseology’s purpose is to minimize congestion on the frequency so everyone can announce their position.

Enjoy yourself up there above FL180 but when you come down to my territory act like a professional.

(By the way if you haven't been above FL 600 you don't have anything to brag about to me).

Now who isn't acting like a professional???? Pee in my pants???? Where do you come up with these zingers.

I'm not bragging, just stating facts.

I'm done with you, even if you are older then me, you sure as hell aren't wiser.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

Now who isn't acting like a professional???? Pee in my pants???? Where do you come up with these zingers.

I'm not bragging, just stating facts.

I'm done with you, even if you are older then me, you sure as hell aren't wiser.

Everyone knows that if you want to wrestle a pig you have to get in the mud.

 

[HSDriver]

Then I hope your AOPA legal insurance is paid up. Let me know the next time you're going to be using an untowered field in the southwest and I'll have my former co-worker from the local FSDO drop by with his note pad......

Will do...

 

[HSDriver]

If you're going to give someone a hard time about his phraseology, you better make sure you get it right yourself!!! I don't think the FAA has ever used the term "untowered", and they have used the term uncontrolled in the past. I can find references to "non-towered", which is what I think you were trying to say. Anyway, enough of that...

While the AIM is a useful document, it is not the only document we should be referencing. I did a quick search and found AC90-66A. Among other things, it says:
"The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Therefore, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times to aircraft executing straight-in approaches."

I believe the FAA's current stance on straight in approaches is that while they don't specifically condone them, they recognize that they may be "operationally advantageous" for some operations.

Greg

Well said. I'm done with this thread now.

 

[cush]

I have to laugh at this! A month ago I decided to get a rental check out in a 172 so I could take my kids flying. As I hadn't flown a single in over 5 years. Taxiing out to the runway I said, "cessna 1234 taxiing for departure runway 27, ANY TRAFFIC PLEASE ADVISE" as I had been on the frequency for just moments and wanted to know if any other A/C had already been making reports.

So anyway, after the checkout the wet behind the ears instructor said, "great job. But, the only thing I would say is, not to do the any traffic please advise call." Anyway Kudos to him for noticing the change, but I still think common sense would dictate, on your FIRST TRANSMISSION I like to get a heads up on what's been going on. At risk others may assume you heard their transmissions. My .02.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

I have to laugh at this! A month ago I decided to get a rental check out in a 172 so I could take my kids flying. As I hadn't flown a single in over 5 years. Taxiing out to the runway I said, "cessna 1234 taxiing for departure runway 27, ANY TRAFFIC PLEASE ADVISE" as I had been on the frequency for just moments and wanted to know if any other A/C had already been making reports.

So anyway, after the checkout the wet behind the ears instructor said, "great job. But, the only thing I would say is, not to do the any traffic please advise call." Anyway Kudos to him for noticing the change, but I still think common sense would dictate, on your FIRST TRANSMISSION I like to get a heads up on what's been going on. At risk others may assume you heard their transmissions. My .02.

Everyone please remember that this phase is banned by the AIM as inappropriate; it is not the whim of some wet behind the ears flight instructor.


Some feel they can pick and choose the Regs or AIM operating procedures that apply to them and ignore the rest but in my opinion that attitude is unprofessional.

Pilots on this forum are supposed to be some of the "best of the best". When a lowly wet behind the ears flight instructor is trying to teach his students properly and the "professional's" display the attitude that they are free to do as they please what impression does that leave?

How about a little discussion on why the Feds would not want it (ATITAPA) used? There must be some thought and reason for it's excusion.

 

[Fozzy]

There must be some thought and reason for it's excusion.

Thought and reason and the FAA!?! Sorry that argument holds no water.

 

[fischman]

Everyone please remember that this phase is banned by the AIM as inappropriate; it is not the whim of some wet behind the ears flight instructor.


Some feel they can pick and choose the Regs or AIM operating procedures that apply to them and ignore the rest but in my opinion that attitude is unprofessional.

Pilots on this forum are supposed to be some of the "best of the best". When a lowly wet behind the ears flight instructor is trying to teach his students properly and the "professional's" display the attitude that they are free to do as they please what impression does that leave?

How about a little discussion on why the Feds would not want it (ATITAPA) used? There must be some thought and reason for it's excusion.

I'm glad you posted that. That was going to be my next post. I'll be honest, I don't understand the harm in asking if there is any traffic on the radio.

Does anyone have an answer for this?

 

[xjcaptain]

I'm glad you posted that. That was going to be my next post. I'll be honest, I don't understand the harm in asking if there is any traffic on the radio.

Does anyone have an answer for this?

Seems pretty simple.. Frequency congestion. Hopefully we can hear something besides a squeal over CTAF frequencies. Anybody here think that if somebody hears your traffic call, and they are close to you they are NOT going to respond, or they are waiting for you to tell them to?

 

[ksu_aviator]

Seems pretty simple.. Frequency congestion. Hopefully we can hear something besides a squeal over CTAF frequencies. Anybody here think that if somebody hears your traffic call, and they are close to you they are NOT going to respond, or they are waiting for you to tell them to?

That isn't the point. Why would you need to ask people to advise their positions if they are already making radio calls?

You ask for position reports when landing in rural Kansas or west Texas and Joe Farmer's son is doing pattern work at an airport that sees 1 aircraft a year that doesn't have a call sign starting with Cessna and hasn't made a radio call in three months. Even after you ask for the report, you still fly the appropriate traffic pattern and you still look out.

Also, to the guy that likes to only do straight in, the idea that if you spend less time in the pattern you are better off is like saying if I'm going to run a stop sign I should do it at 90 mph because I'll have less time to have an accident. Justify your inappropriate traffic pattern how ever you like, it is still inappropriate.

 

[xjcaptain]

That isn't the point. Why would you need to ask people to advise their positions if they are already making radio calls?

You ask for position reports when landing in rural Kansas or west Texas and Joe Farmer's son is doing pattern work at an airport that sees 1 aircraft a year that doesn't have a call sign starting with Cessna and hasn't made a radio call in three months. Even after you ask for the report, you still fly the appropriate traffic pattern and you still look out.

Also, to the guy that likes to only do straight in, the idea that if you spend less time in the pattern you are better off is like saying if I'm going to run a stop sign I should do it at 90 mph because I'll have less time to have an accident. Justify your inappropriate traffic pattern how ever you like, it is still inappropriate.

I'm not sure how this got to be a discussion on traffic patterns/straight in approaches. I thought it was about proper radio technique. Seems all I hear is people TALKING AND TALKING, but not listening. Try the standard phrasology and cut out the unnecessary chatter and the frequency might open up enough to be useful. Also it seems like you look down on "Joe Farmers son" for not following procedure, but it's O.K. for you to do the same because you personally think it's O.K. If we all follow the same rules, we all will know what is going on.
We should try to work to improve those who are not following procedure, rather than deviate from others rules and cause futher problems.

 

[dime line]

The problem is, not everybody makes radio calls at uncontrolled airports. So I make a radio call "Is anybody in the area of xyz". If that is "unprofessional" then I'm the most unprofessional pilot out there, but I'm not gonna be dead-right. There are rules, most don't play by, but how do the rules fit a jet trying to zipper in to 5 172's in the pattern. I don't even use my full tail number, I use "hawker" at uncontrolled airports, its eaiser and faster on a congested freq. Other planes know what "Hawker" is or might be, but nobody on freq has a clue what 123QS is. It could be anything.

My 2 cents

 

[FLYLOW22]

I like how in the back and forth attacks in this thread (and others), everyone feels the need to call the other one, "junior" or "son", just to make sure that the other guy and everyone else knows he is not as "seasoned and salty" as his attacker.........

Now look here son...

If NJA pilots sound a bit unfamiliar at a certain untowered airfield as compared to the other bug smashers that are there... all the time... constantly... every time they fly well then that's because we are just a bit unfamiliar with that place as compared to the other bug smashers.

We routinely fly... everywhere. Anywhere domestically alone to over 5,000 airports at random could be our destination of the day.

No one is perfect. NJA pilots usually don't know the tribal customs at XYZ field and weekend warriors/low time pilots know only about a few airports period.

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE STANDARDIZATION.

I agree that radio phraseology at nontowered airfields is a weak spot... for everyone. Headed to MYR in an A320 one night (tower closed) I started making radio calls to the CTAF on #2 as I also worked ATC on #1. The Captain looked over at me and asked "What just in Blue Hell was I doing???!!!??". I just smiled and said I was talking to CTAF. He said, "SEE WHAT?!?!". I told him I'd take the fat flight attendant and just trust me, all would be okay on the overnight.

For the record, he did make a Right Base entry to land to the south but it WAS more than a 3NM final IAW our FOM.

He had not worked with CTAF ops in so long (or ever??) that the entire concept departed his brain.

Oh well...

I've honestly had more issues with local Ace's of the Base making up the rules by landing against the taffic pattern because they were in a C-310 and the straight in would save them a .1 Hobbes.

To call NJA pilots UNSAT for flying into untowered fields, one would have to consider the whole realm of aviation stupidness exemplified by all sectors of the profession.

POT here's BLACK.

 

[brokeflyer]

Hey Net jets guys: One of your finest was heard recently using unprofessional radio phraseology not once but six times inbound to a non-towered airport. No one ever answered him but everyone within 100 miles on 122.7 got to listen to his amateur transmissions.

Please read and heed: Any traffic in the area please advise....... ugh

Aim chapter 4-1-9-g1


g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General.Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

When you get outta the instruction phase and get out on the road you'll learn that sometimes you have to think outside the box......that will keep you from running your first jet into one of your students who graduated to "Im rich and dont need to talk on the radio" syndrome......

 

[Diesel]

I love the guys that say we're over xyz's farmhouse turning base at jimmy sub shop. WTF um i don't know where any of those places are.

 

[gunfyter]

I love the guys that say we're over xyz's farmhouse turning base at jimmy sub shop. WTF um i don't know where any of those places are.

Thats because you are a carpet-bagging Yankee from New England... or you'd know its Jimmy Joe's Ice House ... not sub shop.

Now have a moon pie and an RC Cola... and relax.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Enjoy yourself up there above FL180 but when you come down to my territory act like a professional.

Like what... wearing Doc Martins with a back pack on your shoulder while you hang out at Wendy's in terminal C..... Bro?

I've read your other posts else where, "Guzzler". Now go away and play with the other kids on the regionals board while I decide if I want steak or pasta on my SEA-Tokyo leg tonight. Maybe I can piss off the Russian controllers tonight...

"Any Mig 23's in my traffic area, please report your position".....

Goodbye Putz

 

[Diesel]

Go with the steak the pasta has been a little al dente lately.