Does anybody read the AIM anymore?

[HSDriver]

If you're going to give someone a hard time about his phraseology, you better make sure you get it right yourself!!! I don't think the FAA has ever used the term "untowered", and they have used the term uncontrolled in the past. I can find references to "non-towered", which is what I think you were trying to say. Anyway, enough of that...

While the AIM is a useful document, it is not the only document we should be referencing. I did a quick search and found AC90-66A. Among other things, it says:
"The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Therefore, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times to aircraft executing straight-in approaches."

I believe the FAA's current stance on straight in approaches is that while they don't specifically condone them, they recognize that they may be "operationally advantageous" for some operations.

Greg

Well said. I'm done with this thread now.

 

[cush]

I have to laugh at this! A month ago I decided to get a rental check out in a 172 so I could take my kids flying. As I hadn't flown a single in over 5 years. Taxiing out to the runway I said, "cessna 1234 taxiing for departure runway 27, ANY TRAFFIC PLEASE ADVISE" as I had been on the frequency for just moments and wanted to know if any other A/C had already been making reports.

So anyway, after the checkout the wet behind the ears instructor said, "great job. But, the only thing I would say is, not to do the any traffic please advise call." Anyway Kudos to him for noticing the change, but I still think common sense would dictate, on your FIRST TRANSMISSION I like to get a heads up on what's been going on. At risk others may assume you heard their transmissions. My .02.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

I have to laugh at this! A month ago I decided to get a rental check out in a 172 so I could take my kids flying. As I hadn't flown a single in over 5 years. Taxiing out to the runway I said, "cessna 1234 taxiing for departure runway 27, ANY TRAFFIC PLEASE ADVISE" as I had been on the frequency for just moments and wanted to know if any other A/C had already been making reports.

So anyway, after the checkout the wet behind the ears instructor said, "great job. But, the only thing I would say is, not to do the any traffic please advise call." Anyway Kudos to him for noticing the change, but I still think common sense would dictate, on your FIRST TRANSMISSION I like to get a heads up on what's been going on. At risk others may assume you heard their transmissions. My .02.

Everyone please remember that this phase is banned by the AIM as inappropriate; it is not the whim of some wet behind the ears flight instructor.


Some feel they can pick and choose the Regs or AIM operating procedures that apply to them and ignore the rest but in my opinion that attitude is unprofessional.

Pilots on this forum are supposed to be some of the "best of the best". When a lowly wet behind the ears flight instructor is trying to teach his students properly and the "professional's" display the attitude that they are free to do as they please what impression does that leave?

How about a little discussion on why the Feds would not want it (ATITAPA) used? There must be some thought and reason for it's excusion.

 

[Fozzy]

There must be some thought and reason for it's excusion.

Thought and reason and the FAA!?! Sorry that argument holds no water.

 

[fischman]

Everyone please remember that this phase is banned by the AIM as inappropriate; it is not the whim of some wet behind the ears flight instructor.


Some feel they can pick and choose the Regs or AIM operating procedures that apply to them and ignore the rest but in my opinion that attitude is unprofessional.

Pilots on this forum are supposed to be some of the "best of the best". When a lowly wet behind the ears flight instructor is trying to teach his students properly and the "professional's" display the attitude that they are free to do as they please what impression does that leave?

How about a little discussion on why the Feds would not want it (ATITAPA) used? There must be some thought and reason for it's excusion.

I'm glad you posted that. That was going to be my next post. I'll be honest, I don't understand the harm in asking if there is any traffic on the radio.

Does anyone have an answer for this?

 

[xjcaptain]

I'm glad you posted that. That was going to be my next post. I'll be honest, I don't understand the harm in asking if there is any traffic on the radio.

Does anyone have an answer for this?

Seems pretty simple.. Frequency congestion. Hopefully we can hear something besides a squeal over CTAF frequencies. Anybody here think that if somebody hears your traffic call, and they are close to you they are NOT going to respond, or they are waiting for you to tell them to?

 

[ksu_aviator]

Seems pretty simple.. Frequency congestion. Hopefully we can hear something besides a squeal over CTAF frequencies. Anybody here think that if somebody hears your traffic call, and they are close to you they are NOT going to respond, or they are waiting for you to tell them to?

That isn't the point. Why would you need to ask people to advise their positions if they are already making radio calls?

You ask for position reports when landing in rural Kansas or west Texas and Joe Farmer's son is doing pattern work at an airport that sees 1 aircraft a year that doesn't have a call sign starting with Cessna and hasn't made a radio call in three months. Even after you ask for the report, you still fly the appropriate traffic pattern and you still look out.

Also, to the guy that likes to only do straight in, the idea that if you spend less time in the pattern you are better off is like saying if I'm going to run a stop sign I should do it at 90 mph because I'll have less time to have an accident. Justify your inappropriate traffic pattern how ever you like, it is still inappropriate.

 

[xjcaptain]

That isn't the point. Why would you need to ask people to advise their positions if they are already making radio calls?

You ask for position reports when landing in rural Kansas or west Texas and Joe Farmer's son is doing pattern work at an airport that sees 1 aircraft a year that doesn't have a call sign starting with Cessna and hasn't made a radio call in three months. Even after you ask for the report, you still fly the appropriate traffic pattern and you still look out.

Also, to the guy that likes to only do straight in, the idea that if you spend less time in the pattern you are better off is like saying if I'm going to run a stop sign I should do it at 90 mph because I'll have less time to have an accident. Justify your inappropriate traffic pattern how ever you like, it is still inappropriate.

I'm not sure how this got to be a discussion on traffic patterns/straight in approaches. I thought it was about proper radio technique. Seems all I hear is people TALKING AND TALKING, but not listening. Try the standard phrasology and cut out the unnecessary chatter and the frequency might open up enough to be useful. Also it seems like you look down on "Joe Farmers son" for not following procedure, but it's O.K. for you to do the same because you personally think it's O.K. If we all follow the same rules, we all will know what is going on.
We should try to work to improve those who are not following procedure, rather than deviate from others rules and cause futher problems.

 

[dime line]

The problem is, not everybody makes radio calls at uncontrolled airports. So I make a radio call "Is anybody in the area of xyz". If that is "unprofessional" then I'm the most unprofessional pilot out there, but I'm not gonna be dead-right. There are rules, most don't play by, but how do the rules fit a jet trying to zipper in to 5 172's in the pattern. I don't even use my full tail number, I use "hawker" at uncontrolled airports, its eaiser and faster on a congested freq. Other planes know what "Hawker" is or might be, but nobody on freq has a clue what 123QS is. It could be anything.

My 2 cents

 

[FLYLOW22]

I like how in the back and forth attacks in this thread (and others), everyone feels the need to call the other one, "junior" or "son", just to make sure that the other guy and everyone else knows he is not as "seasoned and salty" as his attacker.........

Now look here son...

If NJA pilots sound a bit unfamiliar at a certain untowered airfield as compared to the other bug smashers that are there... all the time... constantly... every time they fly well then that's because we are just a bit unfamiliar with that place as compared to the other bug smashers.

We routinely fly... everywhere. Anywhere domestically alone to over 5,000 airports at random could be our destination of the day.

No one is perfect. NJA pilots usually don't know the tribal customs at XYZ field and weekend warriors/low time pilots know only about a few airports period.

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE STANDARDIZATION.

I agree that radio phraseology at nontowered airfields is a weak spot... for everyone. Headed to MYR in an A320 one night (tower closed) I started making radio calls to the CTAF on #2 as I also worked ATC on #1. The Captain looked over at me and asked "What just in Blue Hell was I doing???!!!??". I just smiled and said I was talking to CTAF. He said, "SEE WHAT?!?!". I told him I'd take the fat flight attendant and just trust me, all would be okay on the overnight.

For the record, he did make a Right Base entry to land to the south but it WAS more than a 3NM final IAW our FOM.

He had not worked with CTAF ops in so long (or ever??) that the entire concept departed his brain.

Oh well...

I've honestly had more issues with local Ace's of the Base making up the rules by landing against the taffic pattern because they were in a C-310 and the straight in would save them a .1 Hobbes.

To call NJA pilots UNSAT for flying into untowered fields, one would have to consider the whole realm of aviation stupidness exemplified by all sectors of the profession.

POT here's BLACK.

 

[brokeflyer]

Hey Net jets guys: One of your finest was heard recently using unprofessional radio phraseology not once but six times inbound to a non-towered airport. No one ever answered him but everyone within 100 miles on 122.7 got to listen to his amateur transmissions.

Please read and heed: Any traffic in the area please advise....... ugh

Aim chapter 4-1-9-g1


g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions
1. General.Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.

When you get outta the instruction phase and get out on the road you'll learn that sometimes you have to think outside the box......that will keep you from running your first jet into one of your students who graduated to "Im rich and dont need to talk on the radio" syndrome......

 

[Diesel]

I love the guys that say we're over xyz's farmhouse turning base at jimmy sub shop. WTF um i don't know where any of those places are.

 

[gunfyter]

I love the guys that say we're over xyz's farmhouse turning base at jimmy sub shop. WTF um i don't know where any of those places are.

Thats because you are a carpet-bagging Yankee from New England... or you'd know its Jimmy Joe's Ice House ... not sub shop.

Now have a moon pie and an RC Cola... and relax.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Enjoy yourself up there above FL180 but when you come down to my territory act like a professional.

Like what... wearing Doc Martins with a back pack on your shoulder while you hang out at Wendy's in terminal C..... Bro?

I've read your other posts else where, "Guzzler". Now go away and play with the other kids on the regionals board while I decide if I want steak or pasta on my SEA-Tokyo leg tonight. Maybe I can piss off the Russian controllers tonight...

"Any Mig 23's in my traffic area, please report your position".....

Goodbye Putz

 

[Diesel]

Go with the steak the pasta has been a little al dente lately.