DL/NWA Seniority List Integration Arbitration starts TODAY...article

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I think Northwest's last new hire class was in April. Why did they even bother hiring to just furlough? You might be right. This industry sucks.

Pretty much every major carrier kept hiring until they announced the furloughed in 2001.

UAL this year hired until they furloughed just a couple months ago.

That DAL showed the prudence it did with showing restraint on hiring and not going on and on until they needed to furlough this time showed great restraint and foresight... or some luck!

 

[On Your Six]

Yeah, it's hard to think long-term but you boys need to do it in this case. The combined Delta is going to be a powerhouse with a lot more job security for everyone involved. Merger integrations are never easy (just expect pain initially), but the end result will be favorable. Think LONG TERM.

 

[abe44]

Abe,

Give it a rest.

I know you DAL guys love to make fun of the DC9 and how we are slowly phasing them out. At some point the MD-88 will need to be phased out too.

Don't give me this crap about how you are entitled to seniority because our DC9s are starting to go away.

One thing I have not seen addressed on this board is the fact that the NWA leadership team has not been proactive in trying to replace our DC9s with anything. They have stated that the engine technology is just not there for the 100-125 seat range airplane. Besides if you were here you would recognize that this airline has been for sale for the past year. This is self-evident in the way they have been running the operation on a shoe string budget. It was just an excuse to keep building the Compass operation. Is that our fault? Is it DAL pilot's fault that you led the pack in giving up scope to your regional carriers?

Either way you cut it, don't try to leverage our DC9 pilots away because it is an old airplane we are drawing down. A lot of the pilots that fly these airplanes have more than 8 years of seniority. Keep that in mind.

Hey, I didn't say anything about a senority grab. I'm just calling it like I see it as I read the transcripts. I happen to work for Delta, so my opinion comes with a bias....just like your opinion does.

You say there is a draw down of DC-9 time. The expert witness says there is. But some NW guys on here say not. Which is it??

My feeling is this: If you are coming onto the combined list with no control seat, then you need to be at the bottom (not you personally, but you get my point). The "lost slots" from the demise of the DC-9s should be taken into account and the NW guys need to be in those slots.

BTW, the fact that it's the smallest airframe in the combined fleet puts those FO seats at the bottom anyway....

Besides my little quip about the video, I have tried to refrain from slamming anybody.

My main comment has been that I am glad I don't have to argue your case because it's a tough argument to make (DOH). Especially in light of your recent fleet draw down.

Abe

 

[Superpilot92]

We have a winner? Puulleeaasseee. Trying to convince anyone that the -9s are not going away is just ludicrous. They are, what's worse, there are now. So, yes, that matters with regard to the jobs that NWA pilots bring to the table. It is not YOUR seniority, it is OUR--collective--seniority, and it must be distributed fairly. Part of it will be that NWa pilots take a hit for the loss of these airframes.

As for the -80s going away "someday", so will the 777s as well as the 787s. Unfortunately, none of these dates are specific like they are with the -9s. You are grasping at straws like your buddy Occam.

As for replacement aircraft for them, and NWA not being proactive, indeed they have been proactive--replacing them with Rjs. Unfortunately for NWA pilots, that was the plan over there, and does not bode well for the jobs brought to the table. That is what counts, not whos fault it is or isn't. NWA pilots aren't to blame, yet they are indeed victims of the circumstance, which directly corresponds to jobs, which cuts into the seniority arbitration.

Trying to leverage your DC-9 pilots away due to the drawdown of the aircraft is EXACTLY what is relevant in this arbitration.

..and superpilot thinks we have a winner. Grow up little boys.

Listen here "little boy", you assume that a replacement was never going to be brought to NWA. NWA was already looking at replacement aircraft for Mainline. There is no secret in the fact that the DC9's were going to be used in the interim until the replacement aircraft had been chosen and No it wasnt 76 seaters. That is also now the new DAL plan.

Puffdriver = Drama Queen :bawling:

 

[abe44]

Listen here "little boy", you assume that a replacement was never going to be brought to NWA. NWA was already looking at replacement aircraft for Mainline. There is no secret in the fact that the DC9's were going to be used in the interim until the replacement aircraft had been chosen and No it wasnt 76 seaters. That is also now the new DAL plan.

Puffdriver = Drama Queen :bawling:

I'll step in and call BS on this one. Show me one document from anyone at NWA that shows this.

The expert who was hired by your flight attendants in their fight with your management had access to the NWA business plan.

Based on everything he saw from the company, the replacement aircraft is already flying (and not by NWA pilots and flight attendants).

Then he proceeded to illustrate this by describing a couple dozen routes that used to be flown with DC-9s and are now flown by "big RJs".

The speed and scope (pardon the pun!) with which this was done was staggering for me to see (this from a guy who has seen some serious RJ growth at his own company in the past!)

So please share the big secret with the rest of us. What model and how many are going to replace the 100 or so DC-9s that you guys have?

I would love to hear about it, because it would be good for all of us!

Abe

 

[Superpilot92]

I'll step in and call BS on this one. Show me one document from anyone at NWA that shows this.

The expert who was hired by your flight attendants in their fight with your management had access to the NWA business plan.

Based on everything he saw from the company, the replacement aircraft is already flying (and not by NWA pilots and flight attendants).

Then he proceeded to illustrate this by describing a couple dozen routes that used to be flown with DC-9s and are now flown by "big RJs".

The speed and scope (pardon the pun!) with which this was done was staggering for me to see (this from a guy who has seen some serious RJ growth at his own company in the past!)

So please share the big secret with the rest of us. What model and how many are going to replace the 100 or so DC-9s that you guys have?

I would love to hear about it, because it would be good for all of us!

Abe

Again, For some reason you DAL guys cant grasp this , but we have scope protections that set a Mainline Aircraft Floor 1 year after bankruptcy that mgmt couldn't go below without FIRST parking 76 seaters. Therefore a replacement aircraft had to come to Mainline. I know you guys want to believe all of our DC9s were going to get parked and you guys are coming in and saving us but thats just not the case. There is alot involved with all of this.

Oh and using the FA's negotiations as a comparison of the pilots doesnt work because we have the scope protections in our contract.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That is also now the new DAL plan.

Says who? Delta's network planning V.P. was not two feet away when I heard him clearly say, there is no suitable 100 seat aircraft and anything in that size we buy now is already obsolete. ... We are very happy with the way the large CRJ's and Embraer jets are working out.

... and this statement matches exactly with the Company's actions both before and after the merger and integration plans.

Hey, I'd love to have the opportunity to bid Captain on one of these jets instead of waiting. But it just isn't happening.

There are more mainline 100 seaters coming, in the form of 737-700's which will fly a different mission than the DC9/RJ and which will go a whole lot more senior. But this order far pre-dated any thought of a NWA merger and is only slightly impacted by the integration of our operations.

 

[Superpilot92]

Says who? Delta's network planning V.P. was not two feet away when I heard him clearly say, there is no suitable 100 seat aircraft and anything in that size we buy now is already obsolete. ... We are very happy with the way the large CRJ's and Embraer jets are working out.

... and this statement matches exactly with the Company's actions both before and after the merger and integration plans.

Hey, I'd love to have the opportunity to bid Captain on one of these jets instead of waiting. But it just isn't happening.

There are more mainline 100 seaters coming, in the form of 737-700's which will fly a different mission than the DC9/RJ and which will go a whole lot more senior. But this order far pre-dated any thought of a NWA merger and is only slightly impacted by the integration of our operations.

DC9's are to be kept flying through 2012 until a replacement can be found for the 100 seat market. Thats what your team is saying. The DC9 fills a void in the DAL fleet. From now until 2012 we all need to ensure any further aircraft are delivered and flown as mainline aircraft.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Super, I hear you, but that horse is already out of the barn. As for new orders, yes!

 

[abe44]

From now until 2012 we all need to ensure any further aircraft are delivered and flown as mainline aircraft.

On that, we can agree!

Just out of curiosity, how many DC-9s (flying) do you have right now?

And how many did you have at BK exit?

And how many currently flying are due to be parked by the end of the year?

Abe

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

the NWA leadership team has not been proactive in trying to replace our DC9s with anything. They have stated that the engine technology is just not there for the 100-125 seat range airplane.

They are right, the advanced engine technology for a 100+ seat aircraft (which is what the -30s and -50s are) that is substantially better than what is operating now, is not available now.

It HAS been announced, and the first generation is the GTF (Geared Turbofan) engine by Pratt & Whitney. It will power the new Mitsubishi and the Bombardier "C" aircraft. The "C" is what NWA has been planning to replace the -9 with. It is a 100-150-class seat aircraft, and is due to come off the assembly line starting in 2012.

cliff
YIP

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, and if they can get the composites correct along with the GTF, it will offer a 25% saving over current category aircraft. If not it will be a looser.
They need to get it correct because the two large a/c manufacturers are going to coming out with their answers in 2018.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It HAS been announced, and the first generation is the GTF (Geared Turbofan) engine by Pratt & Whitney. It will power the new Mitsubishi and the Bombardier "C" aircraft. The "C" is what NWA has been planning to replace the -9 with. It is a 100-150-class seat aircraft, and is due to come off the assembly line starting in 2012.

cliff
YIP

Cliff,

Find me one direct quote to support what you write. I've posted over and over again Steenland and his managers talking about the replacement of the DC9's with RJ's.

Again, the C Series was canceled after NWA said they were not interested. Delta has no interest either, although I sincerely wish that they did - that's our upgrade if it gets bought.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Guess what NWA is not planning on doing anything. They will have to do a lot of planning if the merger does not get approved by the DOJ though.
Only plans are for another addition to the lake house on Minnetonka.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

NWA has already announced it has no further interest in the C-series....I remember reading that a couple months ago.

 

[PuffDriver]

Listen here "little boy", you assume that a replacement was never going to be brought to NWA. NWA was already looking at replacement aircraft for Mainline. There is no secret in the fact that the DC9's were going to be used in the interim until the replacement aircraft had been chosen and No it wasnt 76 seaters. That is also now the new DAL plan.

Puffdriver = Drama Queen :bawling:

Yawn, I'd like to see it in writing. It ain't there.

Drama queen? Look in the mirror. Your posts are all hype and little substance. You speak like a very junior pilot who is still wet behind the ears. Time to grow up.

 

[FDJ2]

There is no secret in the fact that the DC9's were going to be used in the interim until the replacement aircraft had been chosen and No it wasnt 76 seaters. :bawling:

You're right, it was suppose to be a 77-110 seater paying even less than the DC-9. Refer to NALPA's March 2006 publication "Across the Table."

 

[Superpilot92]

Yawn, I'd like to see it in writing. It ain't there.

Drama queen? Look in the mirror. Your posts are all hype and little substance. You speak like a very junior pilot who is still wet behind the ears. Time to grow up.

Substance to you may not be substance to me fwiw. Also, I assure you that your posts bring just as much relevance to me as mine probably bring to you imp:. Time to grow up and stop with the childish bickering you constantly attempt on this forum.

Thanks again for your substantial contribution to the discussion Puffybaby. Kisses :blush:

 

[Superpilot92]

You're right, it was suppose to be a 77-110 seater paying even less than the DC-9. Refer to NALPA's March 2006 publication "Across the Table."

It was told to me that any replacement aircraft brought on in the future as a mainline DC9 replacement aircraft would Start at DC9 rates as a minimum thanks to the JCBA. Its late and i dont feel like looking this up but That was mentioned to me by a union official as his understanding. fwiw

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Just checked the Bombardier website. They have at least 17 webpages devoted to the "C".

July 15, 2008 — Farnborough, U.K.
Aerospace
Bombardier and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation Sign Contract Related to CSeries Commercial Aircraft
Today, Bombardier Aerospace signed a contract with the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), a subsidiary of the state-owned aviation industrial entity China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC I), to supply the centre fuselage on the newly launched Bombardier CSeries aircraft.

It doesn't sound like they've cancelled the "C" to me.

cliff
YIP