Disgruntled furloughed Midwest pilot accuses "regional pilots" being inferior airmen

[samballs]

Also he has a 1900 rating, I would guess he got that at Skyway, which they would hire you with 350 hours.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Was Midwest not a regional airline itself (or used to be)? This guy was basically bashing himself. Weird........

It depends how you define regional. If you define it on wages, then no, it's not. A Midwest pilot makes wages equivalent to a major pilot. They didn't have a pension, but we all know now that major pilots didn't either. They just thought they did. If you define it on where you fly, then no. Midwest flies to both coasts and had Skyway feeding it. The only thing regional about Midwest was its size. It only had 400 pilots when it was at its largest.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Agreed. That does not mean that Regional=unsafe and Major=safe. But experience does count for something.

Agreed,

I see alot of RJ drivers are pi$$ed off and I would be too. Take it easy and look what is going on. I can see why the Meh Captain is pi$$ed off. If I got outsourced the way the he did I would be pi$$ed off too.

I don't agree with the guy sounding off the way he has about this crash, since, we obviously will not know the cause until the NTSB is finished.

I don't think anyone believes that planes just fall out of the sky as cockpit experience levels drop. The real issue here is scope andthe erosion of jobs held by guys that have "put in their dues" because managers have a viable alternative by replacing "mainline" flying with regional jets and crews with less experience (in general) for less pay. Let's be real, when did a 90 seat aircraft become a regional jet?

It's my fault as well, or should I say our fault for allowing the relaxation of scope clauses. I came from a regional airline and I flew a 50 seat jet for $56/hour. I was once told that I should be ashamed for flying at this rate.

Now that I am looking back I don't know the real answer to the problem because it is true that there is no shortage of people willing to fly at the regional airlines for sh!tt! pay and work rules.

This will continue to be an issue as Airline Managers continue to find ways around scope in order get around paying us what we deserve. What's next?, 110 seat regional(laugh) jets for brand X connection service.

Regional guys don't get too worked up over what this guy wrote. In a few years you may have a different opinion.

 

[CitationLover]

It depends how you define regional. If you define it on wages, then no, it's not. A Midwest pilot makes wages equivalent to a major pilot. They didn't have a pension, but we all know now that major pilots didn't either. They just thought they did. If you define it on where you fly, then no. Midwest flies to both coasts and had Skyway feeding it. The only thing regional about Midwest was its size. It only had 400 pilots when it was at its largest.

Correction: Midwest pilots have a DB pension and a DC pension.

Midwest issues tickets and creates its own routes. It is its own (well it used to be) airline. Republic doesn't do any of this.

 

[CitationLover]

Also he has a 1900 rating, I would guess he got that at Skyway, which they would hire you with 350 hours.

Maybe when you came in, but back then most new FO's had more total time than a junior Emb170 CA getting off high mins 2 years ago.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

SOURCE: Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal Sentinel
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/39999982.html

Lessons to be learned about flying experience

An examination of recent events in the aviation industry begs the question "why?" Let's examine the two most recent airline disasters that had entirely different outcomes, US1549 and CO3407. It might be a prudent consideration before the Milwaukee traveling public books its next airline ticket.

One of the nasty little secrets that the airline companies don't want the traveling public to know is that although the ticket was sold as a Continental Airlines flight, the actual company doing the flying was Colgan Airways of Manassas, Va. Airline companies really hate paying experienced airline pilot salaries and would rather subcontract flying out to the lowest bidder - as opposed to paying their own employees - as a cost-savings measure.

Of course, the results are quite predictable when the combined flying experience aboard most mainline air carriers is greater than the combined ages of those flying at regional air carriers. US 1549 piloted by Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger that ditched into the Hudson River had a much different outcome than did Continental 3407, where it would appear that pilot error might be to blame.

Experienced airline crews don't get paid because of the days when it's sunny and everything is going well. We get paid to ensure everyone entrusted to our care during flight goes home alive at the end of the day, regardless of the circumstances.

As a furloughed airline pilot from Midwest Airlines with nearly 25 years and 15,000 hours of flying experience, I expect history to repeat itself until the traveling public stops falling for the bait-and-switch tactics the airline industry employs in the name of cost savings.

Capt. Scott B. Kaley

Hilton Head, S.C.

Gentlemen, this Kelly I mean Kaley's logic is so flawed it's not even worth entertaining.

 

[erikgigem]

Agreed. That does not mean that Regional=unsafe and Major=safe. But experience does count for something.

True - and so does your age (mental capacity, health issues as you grow older), training, corporate culture as related to safety practices, aeronautical decision making (ADM), how often you study/review at home, and your own attitudes and practices at work (hazardous attitudes, judgment skills, ie human factors).

 

[fr8r]

People that aren't in aviation usually are the ones harping on experience and how gray hair is the measure of a pilot. How do they propose that we gather experience without flying? Do we all just start training at 40 and drop into the captain seat with our full head of gray hair? I get tired of the looks I get being a captain and hearing some of the stupid remarks passengers make.

Seriously, What if "Sully" were a dark haired late 30 something guy who just happened to have the same/similar experience? Would the general public think differently about the accident? Doubt it. I was actually the captain of a flight where we flew an older women who was not happy about me flying... She told my 60 year old FO that she thought he was "coaching" me... He told her "Well, if you want me to fly in the left seat, you'll have to ask the captain." He said that she thought he was the captain, and he told her that I was one of the better pilots that he had flown with in his 20,000+ hour career, that she shouldn't worry about it. I guess she felt somewhat sheepish. I appreciate him going to bat for me, but it's annoying that people have their preconceptions about pilots. I happen to look about 5-8 years younger than I am, I have a baby face.(I'm 35) I shouldn't have to apologize to anyone for that. I sort of realize their concern... they want to make it alive, but give it a rest. This woman had no cause for concern, she was just a 3itch. It's happened more than once too.

 

[acaTerry]

I'm going to bend my own rule and say something before the final is out.
You regional guys (I was one myself...) seem to have your panties in a bunch over the experience issue here. I think the point of the USAirways vs. Colgan fight in here is that had Sully been in there, it most likely would not have occurred. Let's not bring up other accidents. You could dig up major airline accidents all you want, but the records show, indisputably, that the commuters / regionals are the worse of the two.
Again, let's stick to this accident. From what has come out, it was totally avoidable. Experience would have prevented it. Discussing significant ice, and especially during the approach phase, I would expect the experienced crew would have the autopilot off. This would have provided tactile cues to either type of stalls.
Unfortunately, with all the gee-whiz stuff in the modern cockpit, pilots are trained to be button monkeys. I see it in all phases of training from PPL to ATP. I have seen guys who can't perform a simple sidestep because they are f-ing around with the darned box.
AIRMANSHIP! AIRMANSHIP! AIRMANSHIP! Where the heck did it go?!!!! You fly a plane with your head, not your fingers. Airmanship and judgment are what keep you alive.
Additionally, the majority of the pilots in this website have far too much eagerness to have their little feelings hurt. Just look at the facts, look at the results. Draw your conclusions without emotional inputs. Just see the tragedies, and learn how to keep it from being you.
You guys all sound the same. Instead of saying "hey, I fall into that group...I better learn something from this", you rather say "Hey! That's BS, I know that some other more experienced guy screwed up somewhere! Quit picking on me! MOM!!! They're doing it again!"
Quit defending yourselves and learn something.

 

[nerjdriver]

SOURCE: Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal Sentinel
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/39999982.html

Lessons to be learned about flying experience

An examination of recent events in the aviation industry begs the question "why?" Let's examine the two most recent airline disasters that had entirely different outcomes, US1549 and CO3407. It might be a prudent consideration before the Milwaukee traveling public books its next airline ticket.

One of the nasty little secrets that the airline companies don't want the traveling public to know is that although the ticket was sold as a Continental Airlines flight, the actual company doing the flying was Colgan Airways of Manassas, Va. Airline companies really hate paying experienced airline pilot salaries and would rather subcontract flying out to the lowest bidder - as opposed to paying their own employees - as a cost-savings measure.

Of course, the results are quite predictable when the combined flying experience aboard most mainline air carriers is greater than the combined ages of those flying at regional air carriers. US 1549 piloted by Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger that ditched into the Hudson River had a much different outcome than did Continental 3407, where it would appear that pilot error might be to blame.

Experienced airline crews don't get paid because of the days when it's sunny and everything is going well. We get paid to ensure everyone entrusted to our care during flight goes home alive at the end of the day, regardless of the circumstances.

As a furloughed airline pilot from Midwest Airlines with nearly 25 years and 15,000 hours of flying experience, I expect history to repeat itself until the traveling public stops falling for the bait-and-switch tactics the airline industry employs in the name of cost savings.

Capt. Scott B. Kaley

Hilton Head, S.C.

This guy truly is a moron. AAL in littlerock....experienced pilots, Tenerife experienced pilots, air florida in Washington DC experience pilots.........you truly cant replace arrogance.

 

[siucavflight]

This guy truly is a moron. AAL in littlerock....experienced pilots, Tenerife experienced pilots, air florida in Washington DC experience pilots.........you truly cant replace arrogance.

The problem is that the public has a short memory, the last two big crashes in the US, LEX, and now BUF.

 

[buscap]

I thought Obama was gonna fix all this?!!?

 

[siucavflight]

I thought Obama was gonna fix all this?!!?

That was kind of a stupid post.

 

[jimcav]

I'm going to bend my own rule and say something before the final is out.
You regional guys (I was one myself...) seem to have your panties in a bunch over the experience issue here. I think the point of the USAirways vs. Colgan fight in here is that had Sully been in there, it most likely would not have occurred. Let's not bring up other accidents. You could dig up major airline accidents all you want, but the records show, indisputably, that the commuters / regionals are the worse of the two.
Again, let's stick to this accident. From what has come out, it was totally avoidable. Experience would have prevented it. Discussing significant ice, and especially during the approach phase, I would expect the experienced crew would have the autopilot off. This would have provided tactile cues to either type of stalls.
Unfortunately, with all the gee-whiz stuff in the modern cockpit, pilots are trained to be button monkeys. I see it in all phases of training from PPL to ATP. I have seen guys who can't perform a simple sidestep because they are f-ing around with the darned box.
AIRMANSHIP! AIRMANSHIP! AIRMANSHIP! Where the heck did it go?!!!! You fly a plane with your head, not your fingers. Airmanship and judgment are what keep you alive.
Additionally, the majority of the pilots in this website have far too much eagerness to have their little feelings hurt. Just look at the facts, look at the results. Draw your conclusions without emotional inputs. Just see the tragedies, and learn how to keep it from being you.
You guys all sound the same. Instead of saying "hey, I fall into that group...I better learn something from this", you rather say "Hey! That's BS, I know that some other more experienced guy screwed up somewhere! Quit picking on me! MOM!!! They're doing it again!"
Quit defending yourselves and learn something.

Good post. Too many pilots do not know how to fly anymore. Disconnect all the automation and fly the visual app once in a while instead of twisting and pushing buttons. If the capt has a problem with it tell him or her to f**k off!

 

[WayBack]

That was kind of a stupid post.

It's the honest truth. Hussien Obama will fix it all, hell, he even said he was going to cure cancer. Just need to throw more money at it.
Couple more bucks and we'll never have another plane crash.