Dhl

[shooter]

I would also point out that the Superman of this whole hearing was an attorney by the name of Samuel Simon that was called upon to testify by the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. As an attorney from an independent organization called the American Antitrust Institute that clearly stated on the record they are not siding with either party and represents that the laws of our country are upheld in the area of antitrust. He clearly states there are not minor, but possible major antitrust violations in this arrangement and the best course of action would be to stop it before irrevocable harm would come to the DHL operation to the point it would not be able to compete. And since the Department of Justice cannot intervene until a contract is in place and progress is made toward the arrangement, an injunction should be issued by non other than the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the agreement the two (DHL and UPS) are going to have. You can read his written testimony on their web site or on the House Committee web site.

I only wish his question and answers were published as well. This guy was an amazing bank of antitrust information and his stance, which represents the AAI is clear; That this deal should go no farther and stopped right away.

Not that it matters, but if anyone (or their kids) has gone to Rutgers this guy is also a part-time law professor there.

 

[shooter]

Captains Ross and Prater, you guys are doing a great job testifying for all of the 10,000 people that will lose their jobs as a result of this DHL/UPS deal. THANKS!

The only problem I have with the whole hearings platform is that DHL is sending Mullen to hear the questions and pleas of the Representatives, Senators, Mayor, Governor and Lt.Governor. This guy does not understand the negative aspects of this deal DHL will suffer because he is THE ONE incompetent guy that has been leading DHL down the toilet for 5 years now. He is the one that directed the integration fiasco and got promoted as a result of it. He is the one responsible for all of the bad calls they have made since day one of both purchases. How can you tell the donkey he is a donkey when he refuses to accept he is anything but a thoroughbred? When you speak of incompetent management being the direct reason for the situation DHL finds themselves in....he is THE ONE. I don't know if that makes sense but he is every bad decision.

 

[cheyflyer]

DHL press release about the hearing: http://www.businesswire.com/portal/...d=news_view&newsId=20080916006426&newsLang=en

You have to admit, it is kind of hard to argue the point that UPS flying the volume is any different from Astar/ABX flying the volume.

Then why bother changing. Leave it alone.

 

[Publishers]

This hearing was insignificant as is this whole issue in light of current events. The failures or partial failures, mergers, buyouts, HP laying off 24,000 you tell me what makes this special. People are impacted and it hurts. Wilmington rejoiced when Airborne started there and many of the farm families could supplement their incomes working the sort at nights. It brought jobs and money to an area that had nothing and it has served them well for many years. Sadly, nothing is forever.

 

[EMBPILOT1]

This hearing was insignificant as is this whole issue in light of current events. The failures or partial failures, mergers, buyouts, HP laying off 24,000 you tell me what makes this special. People are impacted and it hurts. Wilmington rejoiced when Airborne started there and many of the farm families could supplement their incomes working the sort at nights. It brought jobs and money to an area that had nothing and it has served them well for many years. Sadly, nothing is forever.

Unfortunately, you may be right. The only difference is that it seem a whole community has been built around the company. As much as I hate Micheal Moore, his movie about Flint tells a similiar story. The one difference being those jobs were sent to Japan.

 

[shooter]

This hearing was insignificant as is this whole issue in light of current events. The failures or partial failures, mergers, buyouts, HP laying off 24,000 you tell me what makes this special. People are impacted and it hurts. Wilmington rejoiced when Airborne started there and many of the farm families could supplement their incomes working the sort at nights. It brought jobs and money to an area that had nothing and it has served them well for many years. Sadly, nothing is forever.

Well, looks like there are a bunch in DC that think it is special. If not for the jobs because of the possible illegal nature of the deal, the impact to the already suffering economy on the consumer and the implications this could have on foreign investment in the US market up to and including open skies. You may not like it over at UPS since you guys may actually feel what all other carriers have been dealing with such as reduced pay decreased benefits and furloughs. But like you said, nothing lasts forever.

 

[EMBPILOT1]

Well, looks like there are a bunch in DC that think it is special. .

I would expect nothing more from politicians. I would hope to God that mine would fight for my job too.

Shares of UPS (Latest price: UPS) were off more than 5 percent today, pulled lower by a broader market sell-off and a downgrade issued by brokerage
Stifel cut its opinion on the stock to hold from buy, mostly because it had risen 19 percent since early July.

"The stock has been a big beneficiary of falling fuel prices, ... but we are not willing to expect that oil retreats much further," the firm wrote.

"Given the current state of the U.S. economy and the slowing global economy, we believe there is insufficient upside potential remaining to keep a buy rating on UPS.
We believe that despite the protests from unions and the State of Ohio the DHL/UPS deal will go through as planned, but that is insignificant to our overall rating on the company

These are the REAL independent sources of Info. As they say, money talks, BS walks. And there is sure a lot of BS in DC.

 

[CRACKHEAD]

You're an idiot!!!

This hearing was insignificant as is this whole issue in light of current events. The failures or partial failures, mergers, buyouts, HP laying off 24,000 you tell me what makes this special. People are impacted and it hurts. Wilmington rejoiced when Airborne started there and many of the farm families could supplement their incomes working the sort at nights. It brought jobs and money to an area that had nothing and it has served them well for many years. Sadly, nothing is forever.

This is significant in many ways and mostly to the aviation industy in which we work in. The loss of Astar and ABX will affect the higher salaries that we have been watching drop quicker than your sister pants over the last decade. With Astar and ABX gone, this will leave FedEx and UPS being a couple of the last few airlines that remain with descent wages and benefits, and they too will also be looking to average the industry average salary by dropping their pay in the future.

This is also significant to you if you want to send a package out in the future; but you won't be able to because the price has shot up due to the fact that there is less competition and because your salary decreased now you won't be able to ship that box!!

It is also significant to the economy. It will hurt you because now there is less people spending money and stimulating the economy and there for slowing the machine even more than where it's at now.

It hurts the entire country as whole, not just us Astar and ABX guys.

CH

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

...there are not minor, but possible major antitrust violations in this arrangement and the best course of action would be to stop it before irrevocable harm would come to the DHL operation to the point it would not be able to compete.

DHL has been steadily losing market share for over 20 years, to the point that it is now in the low single-digits. Considering that despite a 20-year head-start in this business, they are now losing a billion dollars a year in pursuit of an enterprise in which their 2 main competitors have consistently made hundreds of millions per year, raises the question of whether DHL is or will ever be a viable "competitor" under any circumstances.

The antitrust regulations are designed to protect competition, not jobs. The thing that has prevented DHL from being "competitive" isn't some collusion between their 2 biggest competitors, but their own gross mismanagement. And for that, there is no remedy under the law.

 

[shooter]

DHL has been steadily losing market share for over 20 years, to the point that it is now in the low single-digits. Considering that despite a 20-year head-start in this business, they are now losing a billion dollars a year in pursuit of an enterprise in which their 2 main competitors have consistently made hundreds of millions per year, raises the question of whether DHL is or will ever be a viable "competitor" under any circumstances.

The antitrust regulations are designed to protect competition, not jobs. The thing that has prevented DHL from being "competitive" isn't some collusion between their 2 biggest competitors, but their own gross mismanagement. And for that, there is no remedy under the law.

True dat. I will never disagree that the management of DHL needs a bleaching to the point their stain is gone forever. They need a restructuring alright, but they need to start from the top down. That Mullen screwed the pooch on integration and he continues to be a disaster for them. How this guy still still is employed boggles the mind. As long as he is in charge of DHL they will never make the climb out of the cesspool they put themselves in. You are right there isn't a law....but there should be.

 

[ke4lir]

True dat. I will never disagree that the management of DHL needs a bleaching to the point their stain is gone forever. They need a restructuring alright, but they need to start from the top down. That Mullen screwed the pooch on integration and he continues to be a disaster for them. How this guy still still is employed boggles the mind. As long as he is in charge of DHL they will never make the climb out of the cesspool they put themselves in. You are right there isn't a law....but there should be.

Isn't this called the "Peter Principle"?

 

[shooter]

Isn't this called the "Peter Principle"?

:laugh: yes, it is. I think Mullen reached that "level" before he was promoted to where he is today. I never read the book, however. Is it worth the read? With all that is going on here with DHL, maybe I would enjoy it more.

 

[Publishers]

Take whatever solice you want from the hearings. The end result of this will be the same. DHL will not go forward as a company here

 

[shooter]

Take whatever solice you want from the hearings. The end result of this will be the same. DHL will not go forward as a company here

Then that will be their loss no matter what comes of this. Right now you say they are to die alone, I say they will die with the UPS hands around their throat. I also say they have a system that needs new leadership to survive this market and be stronger in the end. If they want to die by pulling out of the USA, it is their decision. But to die by UPS is something I would like to see stopped.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Remember the CEO answers to the board of Dir. When a company losses this much money something must be done. He has stated if before many times and I think no one believes him. The UPS deal must go throug losing 8000 jobs or DHL will pull out of NA and 43000 jobs will be lost. As of today they said the deal will take to the end of the year. Well I think DHL has figured out that US Gov is going to drag this out at 5 mil a day loss and they can't have this. My prediction is if this is not done by the end of Dec, the deal will be done and DHL will start pulling the plug. DHL will subcontract out all packages from Europe and Asia be carried by UPS and no intra NA will be done. I also think, now you guys will love this from a UPS pilot, that UPS will furlough 100 to 200 guys in the late spring as part of the there capacity cuts and no DHL crap to carry plan they are no dout planning right now. Yes I said furlough for those guys in brown that can't believe it can happen. We are fat, the over 60 mostly came back and things are slowing in Asia and Europe now. 150 guys is 15 million is salary savings alone not to mention bennies and retirement (Aand B fund). Looks good on paper meets the bean counters numbers. So you see we all loose from DHL guys, UPS guys, the american consumer, BUT HEY THE LAWYERS AT ANTI TRUCT COMPANY WILL BE ABLE TO HIRE SOME WELL QUALIFIED PILOTS TO PAINT THEIR NEW HOME IN ASPEN. So lets screw the lawyers and not each other.

 

[shooter]

Remember the CEO answers to the board of Dir. When a company losses this much money something must be done. He has stated if before many times and I think no one believes him. The UPS deal must go throug losing 8000 jobs or DHL will pull out of NA and 43000 jobs will be lost. As of today they said the deal will take to the end of the year. Well I think DHL has figured out that US Gov is going to drag this out at 5 mil a day loss and they can't have this. My prediction is if this is not done by the end of Dec, the deal will be done and DHL will start pulling the plug. DHL will subcontract out all packages from Europe and Asia be carried by UPS and no intra NA will be done. I also think, now you guys will love this from a UPS pilot, that UPS will furlough 100 to 200 guys in the late spring as part of the there capacity cuts and no DHL crap to carry plan they are no dout planning right now. Yes I said furlough for those guys in brown that can't believe it can happen. We are fat, the over 60 mostly came back and things are slowing in Asia and Europe now. 150 guys is 15 million is salary savings alone not to mention bennies and retirement (Aand B fund). Looks good on paper meets the bean counters numbers. So you see we all loose from DHL guys, UPS guys, the american consumer, BUT HEY THE LAWYERS AT ANTI TRUCT COMPANY WILL BE ABLE TO HIRE SOME WELL QUALIFIED PILOTS TO PAINT THEIR NEW HOME IN ASPEN. So lets screw the lawyers and not each other.

GREAT! Let's start by UPS pilots saying they will not haul the DHL scraps so that 1000+ ABX and Astar pilots can haul the DHL freight. And ABX and Astar pilots, no hauling UPS freight.

 

[abxaviator]

Please edit for grammar and spellcheck before posting, very difficult to read that.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Then that will be their loss no matter what comes of this. Right now you say they are to die alone, I say they will die with the UPS hands around their throat. I also say they have a system that needs new leadership to survive this market and be stronger in the end. If they want to die by pulling out of the USA, it is their decision. But to die by UPS is something I would like to see stopped.

It's not fair to blame UPS for this. DHL wasn't "killed" by UPS, they died by their own hand. I doubt that new leadership would save them. New leadership 25 years ago, maybe, but not now. What's happening right now is the culmination of 2 decades worth of bad management and failure to invest in the business.

UPS and FedEx both lost billions before they ever turned a profit from their International operations. DHL, though larger than either of their competitors, is unwilling to spend that kind of money here to develop the domestic feed they need to support their International ops. They'll pay the price for that, eventually. But when it happens, it will have been their actions that brought them down, not UPS's.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

I remember when at TWA and bought by AA and the senority was decided and before, how guys spent all there time on this web-site or anther throwing crap back and forth. Well a few of us smart guys decided to use our time to look for another job, Ie make phone calls, network, up date log books and redue resumes. Well we all went to work while those who spent what few days of employment left bitching and keeping their head in the sand. Stop your bitching and whinning loosing your job happens in every job sector and people move on. But for some reason pilots take it personal, like we are entitled to somthing. Your not entitled to crap in this country so live with it or move to tibet. There are losts of jobs you just have to go after them and be willing to work to get them. Being a pilot makes people lazy and forget they are type a and have other skills that are desired.

 

[abxaviator]

Perhaps a writing class would have been an effective use of time as well.

 

[727flier]

LOL.............now that was funny.

 

[shooter]

It's not fair to blame UPS for this. DHL wasn't "killed" by UPS, they died by their own hand. I doubt that new leadership would save them. New leadership 25 years ago, maybe, but not now. What's happening right now is the culmination of 2 decades worth of bad management and failure to invest in the business.

UPS and FedEx both lost billions before they ever turned a profit from their International operations. DHL, though larger than either of their competitors, is unwilling to spend that kind of money here to develop the domestic feed they need to support their International ops. They'll pay the price for that, eventually. But when it happens, it will have been their actions that brought them down, not UPS's.

That was my thinking as well, before the hearings revealed to me that UPS went to DHL with this "proposal". That does make it a UPS action and plan to eliminate the 8200 jobs. At first I thought DHL came up with this plan, but now we all know better that it was UPS that called up DHL and said "lets eliminate all your workers and pilots".

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

That was my thinking as well, before the hearings revealed to me that UPS went to DHL with this "proposal". That does make it a UPS action and plan to eliminate the 8200 jobs. At first I thought DHL came up with this plan, but now we all know better that it was UPS that called up DHL and said "lets eliminate all your workers and pilots".

Yessssss...but DHL was in talks with FedEx to do the very same thing well before UPS became involved. Wouldn't that make it a "FedEx proposal" as well?

I'm no fan of big business, UPS included. In my opinion, they're behavior and methods of operation are often reptilian at best. But reptiles don't kill for sport. Only a few species, (of which homo-sapiens are one), do. What would be gained by UPS' "eliminating" 8200 jobs? Nothing, really. In fact, they'd risk a lot of bad press, not to mention the loss of 8200 potential customers, their families, and friends. Sorry Shooter, but this isn't personal.

DHL is dying in the Americas. UPS is picking over the bones, seeing if there's anything there they can make use of. As it turns out, they anticipate having some open space on their planes at a time when the load factors hardly justify DHL operating their own. The biggest barrier to "outsourcing" that flying went out the window the instant Astar ratified their latest contract.

"Tell Mikey it was business, just business. Personally, I always liked the kid"

-Sal Tessio, going for his last ride

 

[shooter]

Yessssss...but DHL was in talks with FedEx to do the very same thing well before UPS became involved. Wouldn't that make it a "FedEx proposal" as well?

I'm no fan of big business, UPS included. In my opinion, they're behavior and methods of operation are often reptilian at best. But reptiles don't kill for sport. Only a few species, (of which homo-sapiens are one), do. What would be gained by UPS' "eliminating" 8200 jobs? Nothing, really. In fact, they'd risk a lot of bad press, not to mention the loss of 8200 potential customers, their families, and friends. Sorry Shooter, but this isn't personal.

DHL is dying in the Americas. UPS is picking over the bones, seeing if there's anything there they can make use of. As it turns out, they anticipate having some open space on their planes at a time when the load factors hardly justify DHL operating their own. The biggest barrier to "outsourcing" that flying went out the window the instant Astar ratified their latest contract.

"Tell Mikey it was business, just business. Personally, I always liked the kid"

-Sal Tessio, going for his last ride

I don't take it as a personal attack. But that does not change the effect if I had, now does it? The ONLY reason there is a standard severance package and an okay retention package is because of the political pressure and local uproar. Even so, these are minuscule offerings and a drop in the bucket that will be needed to rebuild the SW Ohio areas of impact. These are NOT offerings out of the goodness of DHL's heart. If they had their way they would do nothing but hand out the pink slips. uke:

 

[splatt]

People keep saying 6000 - 8000 jobs will be lost in the ILN area. Let's not forget all the other SW Ohio businesses that this will effect. Hotels, resturants, retail and real estate. Home values will plumet. Business will go broke. My guess is the total jobs lost will be much, much, higher.

 

[shooter]

People keep saying 6000 - 8000 jobs will be lost in the ILN area. Let's not forget all the other SW Ohio businesses that this will effect. Hotels, resturants, retail and real estate. Home values will plumet. Business will go broke. My guess is the total jobs lost will be much, much, higher.

You're right. It depends on the what the topic is for the number affected. When you are talking about the air park jobs the total is 8200. With 6000 from ABX, 1200 Astar and 1000 DHL. When you total in the jobs from other companies that support them, the number jumps to close to 10,000 jobs. The figure when the economic impact hits the area has never been calculated because I don't think it can be measured. Once those businesses decline, you're right that it will be much much higher.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

It depends on the what the topic is for the number affected. When you are talking about the air park jobs the total is 8200. With 6000 from ABX, 1200 Astar and 1000 DHL. When you total in the jobs from other companies that support them, the number jumps to close to 10,000 jobs. The figure when the economic impact hits the area has never been calculated because I don't think it can be measured. Once those businesses decline, you're right that it will be much much higher.

In all the press this thing seems to be generating locally, the one thing I haven't seen mentioned is how many of the jobs to be lost are part-time, and pay no benefits? I'm not discounting the affect this will have on the those affected. But a job lost at an auto plant or steel mill has far greater economic impact both to families and to the community than the loss of a "McJob" flipping burgers or sorting packages.

If you run the numbers on this, it might not be quite as bad as you think. For example, by the time DHL closes it's doors in Wilmington, there will be about 1,000 pilots left on the combined seniority lists of both carriers. If ABX retains 170, that leaves 830 without jobs. But most of them (80%?) don't maintain their primary residence in Clinton County. That would leave maybe 100-200 guys locally without jobs. Some will take early retirement, some will go on to other careers, and some will burn through their savings until the economy turns around and companies start hiring again. It'll be bad, but it's not time to start preparing the Kool-Aid.

Not yet, anyway.

 

[bluesideup340]

With the economy in trouble all three integators, UPS, FedEx, and DHL, have seen daily package counts drop. UPS is off by -150,000 and FedEx by -90,000 every night. I have no info on the DHL numbers.
That being said, it shouldn't be a surprising for some of them to join forces to improve the bottom line.
The sad and hard truth is, they are in the business to make money for their shareholders and not to provide Pilots with good paying jobs. I find it somewhat funny, in a sad way, to suggest that UPS pilots should deny flying DHL freight to support DHL Pilots.

 

[shooter]

In all the press this thing seems to be generating locally, the one thing I haven't seen mentioned is how many of the jobs to be lost are part-time, and pay no benefits? I'm not discounting the affect this will have on the those affected. But a job lost at an auto plant or steel mill has far greater economic impact both to families and to the community than the loss of a "McJob" flipping burgers or sorting packages.

If you run the numbers on this, it might not be quite as bad as you think. For example, by the time DHL closes it's doors in Wilmington, there will be about 1,000 pilots left on the combined seniority lists of both carriers. If ABX retains 170, that leaves 830 without jobs. But most of them (80%?) don't maintain their primary residence in Clinton County. That would leave maybe 100-200 guys locally without jobs. Some will take early retirement, some will go on to other careers, and some will burn through their savings until the economy turns around and companies start hiring again. It'll be bad, but it's not time to start preparing the Kool-Aid.

Not yet, anyway.

By the time DHL closes it's doors in Wilmington? What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that the impact will be less devastating if the job losses come over the period of a year rather than 3 months? Does your argument assume that the only jobs being lost are part-time sorter jobs and pilots without any regard to the other fine paying jobs that will be lost and comparing them to burger-flipping jobs?

Make no mistake that this will have a devastating impact to the area and no amount of misinformed rationalization will change those facts.

 

[shooter]

With the economy in trouble all three integators, UPS, FedEx, and DHL, have seen daily package counts drop. UPS is off by -150,000 and FedEx by -90,000 every night. I have no info on the DHL numbers.
That being said, it shouldn't be a surprising for some of them to join forces to improve the bottom line.
The sad and hard truth is, they are in the business to make money for their shareholders and not to provide Pilots with good paying jobs. I find it somewhat funny, in a sad way, to suggest that UPS pilots should deny flying DHL freight to support DHL Pilots.

Glad you found that funny because it was facetious. If you read the post I was replying to it had a nice little "why can't we all get along and support each other" remark. By the tone I assumed he was a UPS worker/pilot. And since UPS likes to boast they are community oriented and looks out for people, I found it interesting they are the ones that instigated the direct loss of 10,000 jobs. And that the effect of those job losses to the very small community will devastate the area. Thats not exactly the UPS they try to present themselves as. That is not the fault of the UPS worker, and I understand that. Don't confuse my ire of UPS management to be directed at the workers of UPS.

However with all of that being said, if the workers of UPS wanted to truly "get along and support each other" then why not offer preferential interviews for the workers UPS management found so easy to disregard?