Details about the near-crash in Germany

[AV80R]

What? chicks aren't chicks anymore? What are they dudes then? So we must refer to the respective Homosapien groups as either (pronounced I-ther) Man or Woman.
Stupid.
This whole PC thing is WAY outta hand people.

I totally agree with you that the whole PC thing is outta hand. However, that does not mean we have to stoop down to the ACLU level which is pretty much in the gutter.

My point was - this looks like an inexperience issue rather than a gender issue (of course we won’t know until the German equivalent of NTSB looks into the incident, but I seriously doubt they’ll say “had it been a man it wouldn’t have happened!” ). Therefore the title of the thread should've never mentioned that a "chick pilot" was flying but rather that an inexperienced pilot, that’s all.

Let's face it – most 24 year olds usually don’t have lots of experience flying sophisticated jets. Especially German 24 year olds since flying is so much more expensive over there than here in the US (I’m raised in Europe myself so I know this firsthand).

Most pilots at Lufthansa start out their training as an ab-initio trainee, meaning they go from no experience at all to flying very sophisticated jets in a very short time frame. At least that's how things used to be in the past - it might have changed lately.

I’m surprised the captain let her land in those winds, looked like huge crab angle = strong crosswind but then again, maybe it looked worst than it really was?

Lear70 – thanks for the reply – yeah, the rules are unfair and discriminatory – but let’s not shoot the messenger – they’re only doing what you and I would’ve done if we were given the same choice.

 

[huncowboy]

"Sidestick takeover command button?" What the hell is that? Is this an airplane or a PS3 console? Plastic French crap.

Nah Bro! It is not a PS3 or crap. It is just something you have no clue about. Relax...

I am pretty sure std procedure at Lufi is to take control with the takeover push button, that way dual sidestick inputs are avoided. I can also imagine Lufi has a policy about max x-wind on other weather factors when only the PIC will perform the approach/landing. So it is not even a judgement call.

Everyone talking about the x-wind control and the wing low etc and the ********************ty French plane. I would love to see some posts from pilots with significant time in the plane other than ignorant comments from those who have zero experience with it.

Having said that here is my inexperienced 0.02 on it LOL. I have not actually flown the plane just yet but so far in training what we have been told was to not put much wing low with the A320. It is mostly rudder and the computer will maintain zero roll. Well... I am waiting to see this in real life because I still don't see how we are going to avoid a huge sideload. It kind of works in the sim with moderate winds. I can tell it is very hard to fight the habit and not bank lot. I have not attempted anything at 28 knots direct x-wind. That is right at the max sustained limit of 29 gust 38. If she was fed with the same stuff I can see how this could have been a factor. It looks to me on the video that she rolled wings level and kicked rudder then the gust got them.

Regardless it was a very nasty gust right in the worst moment. I am glad it did not end in a crahs.

 

[say again]

She f-ed up big time. It happens to everyone, except most don't have such a sh!tty outcome as this one. I just hope this isn't a trend that we will see in the future with many inexperienced pilots coming thru the ranks. BTW- inexperience is not the same a capability, but ya never know how capable one is until they experience some "real" wx flying in adverse conditions. (You do not get this in a 172 in 250 hrs)

 

[ALIMBO]

She f-ed up big time. It happens to everyone, except most don't have such a sh!tty outcome as this one. I just hope this isn't a trend that we will see in the future with many inexperienced pilots coming thru the ranks. BTW- inexperience is not the same a capability, but ya never know how capable one is until they experience some "real" wx flying in adverse conditions. (You do not get this in a 172 in 250 hrs)

Very true I am almost scared to be going from a basic toy airplane to something huge and sophisticated with such little time. But we all have to take the leap sometime right?

 

[vetrider]

In this modern age of crm this and charm school that, which does have its place by the way, stick and rudder skills seem to have gone by the wayside. In the midst of all the mental masturbation is that pesky, gusty crosswind.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Lufthansa's selection and training is pretty rigorous. There are a couple of their ab-initio course instructors on this board and I'm certain that they'll tell you that gender has little to do with whether those students get through the basic course. They get tossed into a Bonanza from the very beginning and if they don't toe the line, they're out.

The atmosphere at that's company's training facility is really strange, but there is no question who is in charge and those students keep their mouths shut and do what they're told. Even student to student conversations are huddled and hushed....those students are being watched constantly.....and, quite frankly, so are the instructors.

It is truly a paint-by-numbers, follow the checklist to the letter and do exactly what we say type of environment.

Knowing that, I've laughed at some of the speculation on this thread.

I'm willing to bet that the cause of this incident was deeply rooted in a culture (company and country) that stresses following procedures and rules over personal judgment, common sense and good-old-fashioned stick and rudder skills.

The gender or experience level of the person in the right seat had little to do with it, in my opinion.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The dudes who say; "When the conditions are rough I tell the FO I will fly." are usually the weak sisters.

Unless the FO is brand new he/she should be (and usually is) as qualified as the captain to physically fly the airplane.

The weak sister is the Captain who thinks that everybody is created equal and can fly a jet with the same level of skill just because they have a commercial license and a company ID badge.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

I clicked the very 1st link and was distracted by the naked girl video on the german website.

What were we talking about again?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I'm willing to bet that the cause of this incident was deeply rooted in a culture (company and country) that stresses following procedures and rules over personal judgment, common sense and good-old-fashioned stick and rudder skills.

Well no ********************. Like the Swissair pilots who thought it was appropriate to dump fuel with a fire in the cabin.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

I disagree.

To me it looks like the classic, inexperienced crosswind "technique" of crabbing in until the last minute and then rolling to point the nose down the runway and hoping to catch a mainmount on the runway before the aircraft gets pushed off the side. Too much roll.

Captain should have felt some rudder input to point the nose down the centerline not some upwind wing down which is what I see.

I can see where we are trying to say the same thing here though.

that is the way airbus teaches their crosswinds and puts it in the CFM....when we do cat3 autolandings with rollout it does an amazing job...the video to me shows a very unstable approach and the go around was initiated way too late...they are very lucky....experience means so much in this business and i got mine flying cargo lears...now the newbies are getting theirs with innocent souls on board!

 

[ableone]

The weak sister is the Captain who thinks that everybody is created equal and can fly a jet with the same level of skill just because they have a commercial license and a company ID badge.

Typical flamebait response. No facts or logic just kicking sand.

Most FOs can fly as well as the captain. If they can't where you work then your company has a problem.

 

[viper548]

Most FOs can fly as well as the captain. If they can't where you work then your company has a problem.

After getting some experience in the plane maybe. FO's don't just walk out of the sim having the same flying ability as captains, especially if it is their first time in a jet.

 

[PositiveRate]

huncowboy,

The airplane won't maintain zero roll. It is correct, though, that it is easier to crab it in and kick it straight with minimal need for aileron. Remember < 50' you have a direct stick to surface control. The only thing the airbus will do in the flair that's not like any other plane is it induces a gradual nose down pitch to make the flair 'feel' more realistic.

My personal back seat driver opinion after watching the video a couple times is it looked fine until she tried to straighten it out. Looks like she left the crab in just long enough to be on the upwind side of the centerline.

Combine the instinct to correct back to centerline (presumably with left aileron), a decent gust, inexperience and voila - busted winglet and a whole bunch of scared passengers.

She's very lucky she didn't plant it harder and end up in the dirt....it looked like they were past the runway edge when the TOGA oh $hit thrust really kicked in.

 

[ableone]

After getting some experience in the plane maybe. FO's don't just walk out of the sim having the same flying ability as captains

If you are at a major the brand new FO probably has 5000tt and jet experience. He/she is up to speed fairly quickly. If not, it should take no more than a year, or 18 months at the most, for a pilot to match the CA's airplane handling.

Unless you are at a rapidly growing company or your senior pilots are being hired away rapidly most of your fos have probably been online for a while.

The only place I can think of that may look like this right now is MESA. I have never considered them a respectable airline and will grant that they may be the exception to the rule.

 

[viper548]

The FO in this case is 24 years old. It's unlikely she has very much flight time in jets.

A FO at a US major probably has at least 5000 hours, jet experience and most likely has some turbine PIC time too. I would expect that they'd catch on quickly

 

[labbats]

If you are at a major the brand new FO probably has 5000tt and jet experience. He/she is up to speed fairly quickly. If not, it should take no more than a year, or 18 months at the most, for a pilot to match the CA's airplane handling.

Unless you are at a rapidly growing company or your senior pilots are being hired away rapidly most of your fos have probably been online for a while.

The only place I can think of that may look like this right now is MESA. I have never considered them a respectable airline and will grant that they may be the exception to the rule.

You're good.

It took me until this post to even realize this was flamebait.

 

[vetrider]

Decent stick and rudder skills either show up fairly early or they never do, in my opinion. Given the same denominator, experience always counts. But, experience can't do anything for a lack of basic skills.

In my opinion, basic skills show up early and tutelage, instruction, mentoring and experience round out the package as time goes by.

Sending people from nose wheel airplanes right into a virtual jet isn't ideal. I bet that Lufthansa pilot in question could brief a mean approach and dot i's and cross t's with the best of em, the only problem is that dam crosswind....

Teach em to fly first, then teach em to dot i's and cross t's. I may be a little ignorant as to what goes on in the ab initio world, but I have a hunch they teach em to dot i's and cross t's first, and then hope the rest falls into place, which is backwards thinking the way I see it.

 

[ableone]

The FO in this case is 24 years old. It's unlikely she has very much flight time in jets.

A FO at a US major probably has at least 5000 hours, jet experience and most likely has some turbine PIC time too. I would expect that they'd catch on quickly

Now we are talking about two subjects.

1. The validity of Ab Initio traning.

2. FO flying.

If ab initio is really everything it is supposed to be and she had at least a year online, she should have been fully capable of flying.

Even if she was weak, (assumedly because of inexperience not cognitive ability.) the only way to learn is to do.

There is a reason that the FARs allow a 121 captain to operate as an instructor. He/she is expected to teach when necessary. A capt. should always be prepared to take the airplane but there are not many instances in which he/she should as a rule not allow the fo to fly.

The only blanket exception I can think of is if the CA is new to the airplane or the operation and is not yet convinced of his/her own ability.

 

[huncowboy]

Remember < 50' you have a direct stick to surface control.

Dang... You are correct. I forgot about flare mode. I mixed it up with a conversation we had about transitioning from crab to wing low on short final but still above 50'. My bad.

 

[ableone]

Dang... You are correct. I forgot about flare mode. I mixed it up with a conversation we had about transitioning from crab to wing low on short final but still above 50'. My bad.

WRONG

Flare mode is a pitch mode only. Normal roll control law applies until touchdown.

http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repo...7639/media_object_file_FLT_OPS-LAND-SEQ05.pdf