Details about the near-crash in Germany

[ableone]

The weak sister is the Captain who thinks that everybody is created equal and can fly a jet with the same level of skill just because they have a commercial license and a company ID badge.

Typical flamebait response. No facts or logic just kicking sand.

Most FOs can fly as well as the captain. If they can't where you work then your company has a problem.

 

[viper548]

Most FOs can fly as well as the captain. If they can't where you work then your company has a problem.

After getting some experience in the plane maybe. FO's don't just walk out of the sim having the same flying ability as captains, especially if it is their first time in a jet.

 

[PositiveRate]

huncowboy,

The airplane won't maintain zero roll. It is correct, though, that it is easier to crab it in and kick it straight with minimal need for aileron. Remember < 50' you have a direct stick to surface control. The only thing the airbus will do in the flair that's not like any other plane is it induces a gradual nose down pitch to make the flair 'feel' more realistic.

My personal back seat driver opinion after watching the video a couple times is it looked fine until she tried to straighten it out. Looks like she left the crab in just long enough to be on the upwind side of the centerline.

Combine the instinct to correct back to centerline (presumably with left aileron), a decent gust, inexperience and voila - busted winglet and a whole bunch of scared passengers.

She's very lucky she didn't plant it harder and end up in the dirt....it looked like they were past the runway edge when the TOGA oh $hit thrust really kicked in.

 

[ableone]

After getting some experience in the plane maybe. FO's don't just walk out of the sim having the same flying ability as captains

If you are at a major the brand new FO probably has 5000tt and jet experience. He/she is up to speed fairly quickly. If not, it should take no more than a year, or 18 months at the most, for a pilot to match the CA's airplane handling.

Unless you are at a rapidly growing company or your senior pilots are being hired away rapidly most of your fos have probably been online for a while.

The only place I can think of that may look like this right now is MESA. I have never considered them a respectable airline and will grant that they may be the exception to the rule.

 

[viper548]

The FO in this case is 24 years old. It's unlikely she has very much flight time in jets.

A FO at a US major probably has at least 5000 hours, jet experience and most likely has some turbine PIC time too. I would expect that they'd catch on quickly

 

[labbats]

If you are at a major the brand new FO probably has 5000tt and jet experience. He/she is up to speed fairly quickly. If not, it should take no more than a year, or 18 months at the most, for a pilot to match the CA's airplane handling.

Unless you are at a rapidly growing company or your senior pilots are being hired away rapidly most of your fos have probably been online for a while.

The only place I can think of that may look like this right now is MESA. I have never considered them a respectable airline and will grant that they may be the exception to the rule.

You're good.

It took me until this post to even realize this was flamebait.

 

[vetrider]

Decent stick and rudder skills either show up fairly early or they never do, in my opinion. Given the same denominator, experience always counts. But, experience can't do anything for a lack of basic skills.

In my opinion, basic skills show up early and tutelage, instruction, mentoring and experience round out the package as time goes by.

Sending people from nose wheel airplanes right into a virtual jet isn't ideal. I bet that Lufthansa pilot in question could brief a mean approach and dot i's and cross t's with the best of em, the only problem is that dam crosswind....

Teach em to fly first, then teach em to dot i's and cross t's. I may be a little ignorant as to what goes on in the ab initio world, but I have a hunch they teach em to dot i's and cross t's first, and then hope the rest falls into place, which is backwards thinking the way I see it.

 

[ableone]

The FO in this case is 24 years old. It's unlikely she has very much flight time in jets.

A FO at a US major probably has at least 5000 hours, jet experience and most likely has some turbine PIC time too. I would expect that they'd catch on quickly

Now we are talking about two subjects.

1. The validity of Ab Initio traning.

2. FO flying.

If ab initio is really everything it is supposed to be and she had at least a year online, she should have been fully capable of flying.

Even if she was weak, (assumedly because of inexperience not cognitive ability.) the only way to learn is to do.

There is a reason that the FARs allow a 121 captain to operate as an instructor. He/she is expected to teach when necessary. A capt. should always be prepared to take the airplane but there are not many instances in which he/she should as a rule not allow the fo to fly.

The only blanket exception I can think of is if the CA is new to the airplane or the operation and is not yet convinced of his/her own ability.

 

[huncowboy]

Remember < 50' you have a direct stick to surface control.

Dang... You are correct. I forgot about flare mode. I mixed it up with a conversation we had about transitioning from crab to wing low on short final but still above 50'. My bad.

 

[ableone]

Dang... You are correct. I forgot about flare mode. I mixed it up with a conversation we had about transitioning from crab to wing low on short final but still above 50'. My bad.

WRONG

Flare mode is a pitch mode only. Normal roll control law applies until touchdown.

http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repo...7639/media_object_file_FLT_OPS-LAND-SEQ05.pdf

 

[vetrider]

The FO in this case is 24 years old. It's unlikely she has very much flight time in jets.

A FO at a US major probably has at least 5000 hours, jet experience and most likely has some turbine PIC time too. I would expect that they'd catch on quickly

A low time and and little experienced pilot with excellent skills could outdo your hypothetical 5,000 hr turbine pic pilot with average or less skills in a crosswind. Your point is valid, but it also assumes the same basic skill level applies to all, which isn't always the case.

 

[viper548]

If ab initio is really everything it is supposed to be and she had at least a year online, she should have been fully capable of flying.
After a year, she should be up to speed. We'll have to see if she had that much experience
Even if she was weak, (assumedly because of inexperience not cognitive ability.) the only way to learn is to do.
Of course. I'd rather learn to land in challenging conditions as a FO with an experienced captain with me. When the flying is at the limits of the airplane's capabilities the captain needs to step in and get the job done. Save the instruction for a less challenging day.
There is a reason that the FARs allow a 121 captain to operate as an instructor. He/she is expected to teach when necessary. A capt. should always be prepared to take the airplane but there are not many instances in which he/she should as a rule not allow the fo to fly.
I think crosswinds in excess of 30kts is a good example

The only blanket exception I can think of is if the CA is new to the airplane or the operation and is not yet convinced of his/her own ability.
If the captain is comfortable letting the FO fly the plane when they are not comfortable doing it themself, there's a problem

They're lucky no one got hurt

 

[brainhurts]

Guys,
Has anyone considered that possibly the Captain let her land that day so as to let her screw up and then when he had to save the day, she feels compelled to enter into sexual relations? If that was the case, I consider him a genius because by now he has gotten lucky with a 24 year old hottie, the press considers him a hero, and FI has given him 7 pages to date! Bravo!

 

[viper548]

Nice theory, did they go into holding after the go around?

 

[PositiveRate]

ABLEONE and Huncowboy,

Able is correct. Only part of what I said earlier was correct.

Flair mode is indeed normal law with the following - pitch is memorized at 50', at 30' gradual pitch down induced which makes the checking of the descent feel more natural.

The direct surface to stick is only in the ground mode or direct law.

Don't want to give you the wrong answers before you're even out of sim.


When in doubt, just fly the f^cking airplane ;-)