Delta's taking the path of Pan Am by trying to become a long-haul carrier

[General Lee]

There might be a fairly large pullout, maybe only leaving service to ATL, CVG and JFK for INTL departures. I don't really know, but those ASA airplanes may be used somewhere else. We shall see soon.....???


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[drag]

I'd bet on a major pullout from DFW. The equipment could be transferd to East Coast markets. DFW is the weak link in the DAL system. I'd guess on some growth out of ATL, DCA, LGA, JFK, and BOS. PHL could also be in play. Huge O/D and big international markets. This pending the USair situation.

DAL must grow in 1st class cities. DFW is run by AA. Perhaps a LLC may make some inroads there, but it'll be a nasty fight. CVG and SLC are weak markets. They're ok for connections. BOS, NYC, PHL, DC, and ATL are anchor cities.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

House X,


What? Airtran is kicking our a$$ in ATL? Hmmmmm. OK. Right. What? We still fly to many many more cities from ATL than Airtran does, and those city pairs are not affected at all. Sure, we watch them closely and they are a great competitor, but we have defended ATL well. They have had to branch out to other cities to grow, and they have hurt other carriers as well.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Uh General, I hate to break it to you seeing as how you seem to dislike anyone with more financial understanding than you; but AirTran is kicking your a$$ in ATL in the one area that counts:

The Bottom Line.

I mean have you seen any recent DAL filings? Compared them to AirTran?

Plus, I'm willing to bet that they'd rank much higher then glorious Mother Delta in customer satisfaction surveys. I know they do with people I talk to (biz travellers, the ones that count).

 

[General Lee]

Jungle jet,

Man, you are a financial GENIUS. OF course we are hurting more than they are right now---primarily because we can't raise fares for some reason(the ATA wants labor costs down at all airlines), and we have more airplanes that require more high priced fuel. We have to adjust our costs, and come up with a viable plan---and that is also obvious and being worked on at this moment.

As far as cutomer satisfaction and the "business guy"---Airtran doesn't fly to every city that Delta does, and we have millions more frequent flyers than Airtran does, and I am willing to bet that our INTL Business Elite service is better than Airtran's first class service. Yes, we actually need to get rid of a lot of our front line employees that are old and jaded---that is true. To improve on that aspect, we will need to bring back some youth and spunk....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

Jungle jet,

Yes, we actually need to get rid of a lot of our front line employees that are old and jaded---that is true. To improve on that aspect, we will need to bring back some youth and spunk....


Bye Bye--General Lee

True, but why would anyone with youth and spunk want to work for DL? Falling payscales, reduced benefits and a dying company....I doubt there are a lot of high quality folks who want that.

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,


Love your "dying company" remark. Funny, I think the AA managment people said the same thing before they got refinancing the next day after they got huge concessions.

But, I can see why you and Fins want us to take huge cuts now, we all can see why. They will come for you next.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DDpaysoff]

I see him dropping some unprofitable areas, but he won't just stop feeding his hubs with mainline aircraft and revert to only RJs---no way. If that happened, then there would be very little businessman feed. I also think that the INTL arena is an area we needed to exploit better, since there is a lack of LCCs on INTL routes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I met four passengers yesterday that fly us every week to LGA to go to work. Three on one flight even knew each other from taking the flights every week. I had a chance to have a small conversation with all of them, thanking them for their business etc. During the conversation I asked them several questions one was does this flight usually operate on time for you? Three of the people said yes, "usually", I just wish it was an hour earlier. One person on another flight said, it is a direct flight, what more can you ask for?
Business travelers want rewards and frequency. I'm not buying all of the business travelers don't like RJ's talk. Sure they might not like an RJ on DCA to DFW, but who does?

 

[FLB717]

General,

You can keep a lot of those routes that we don't fly. There is a reason we don't, money or the slim margins of it rather. But hey the pie is big enough for us both in ATL. You keep your part and we will see if we cant find some cookies and milk out side of the ol' ATL. Unlike Delta I don't have to fly every dang airport to float my CEO's ego of how great we are or aren't based on the number of destinations we fly or don't fly and the glorious Int'l routes. ATL DAY pays the bills just fine.

 

[KingAirer]

Again, I'll state that the lack of customer service from airlines is the biggest factor driving growth of 135 ops like ours, TSA isn't tthe only reason. People are being asked to ante up absurd amounts of cash for an inferior product, then being treated by the ground staff as if the staffers are doing the customer a favor by even acknowledging their presence.

Again, based on my personal experience and talking to our customers, DL is by far the worst at this, with US coming a close second. Neither I nor the paying customer care whether the reason is that they are understaffed, as someone else offered as an excuse. I'm paying my money, I'd like to be treated as though you give a da_n about me. Most DL ground staffers probably wouldn't pi$$ on you if you were on fire right in front of them, and the other legacies really aren't any better.

Combine that with the fact that I can get them to their destination quicker, without a layover in $hitty CVG or Hartsfield, treat them with respect and do it for LESS then the majors; the writing should be on the wall.

Either change your business dynamics or go the way of Pan Am.

It may be no excuse that they are understaffed when you "paid your money" for the flight, but just how much did you pay? $29 Roundtrip?

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,


Ok, deal. You guys stay with cities like DAY and Moline, and we will concentrate on Aruba, San Jose Costa Rica, Buenos Aires, Rome, and other cites like that. Deal.........(But we can't give up on LGA, DCA, PHL, LAS, LAX, EWR(we would like to give up EWR), ORD, and a few others.....)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[House_X]

FLB717,


Ok, deal. You guys stay with cities like DAY and Moline, and we will concentrate on Aruba, San Jose Costa Rica, Buenos Aires, Rome, and other cites like that. Deal.........(But we can't give up on LGA, DCA, PHL, LAS, LAX, EWR(we would like to give up EWR), ORD, and a few others.....)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I'm trying to bust on Delta and I'm not trying to make this personal...but the reality is Delta has a very poor international presence when compared to other legacy carriers. I can't name one geographical area that Delta dominates in. Let's take a count...

Latin America:
American and Continental have this region already locked up...

Europe:
Too many carriers to name...I doubt Delta could expand any larger without response from Lufthannsa, BA, Virgin, Air France, KLM....not to mention all the US carriers.

Asia:
The most competitive market in the world. United and Northwest dominate Asia in terms of US carriers. They have a strong presence in Japan, Hong Kong, Mainland China and S.E. Asia. The slots (landing rights) are given out by individual governments. Cathay, ANA, JAL, KAL and Singapore continue to aggressively buy more airplanes and are expanding into US markets. Even now, United continues to have a strong Asia schedule and is adding flights to China despite it's financial difficulties.

I fly on Delta a lot...and I can tell you as a non-rever, the coach class service is no different from an LCC. I think Delta needs to find a way to reduce it's costs and battle the LCC's and it must find it fast. Shifting to International will not help...coach, business and first class on Delta is below standard when compared to international carriers. Unless you guys can reduce your ticket prices and hire F/A's from Hooters....the flying public will continue to buy tickets on carriers like Virgin if they want to go to Europe.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

It may be no excuse that they are understaffed when you "paid your money" for the flight, but just how much did you pay? $29 Roundtrip?

And your point is what? (I know your really didn't have one, just flaming away but I'll humor you and actually think you were serious).

First off, unless they are furloughees, our guys don't jumpseat (except occasionally on ATA, they're the only ones who consistently allow 135 jumpseaters as policy). Therefore if we have to reposition someone, we have to buy a ticket (usually at an exobitant fare). So we do have recent experience on just about every carrier out there at the moment. And the way DL pilots consistently treat their colleagues is shameful, refusing jumpseat for not wearing a hat (our guys don't wear them) or a jacket in 110 degree weather in DFW. The ground staff is worse, but that's another issue. I get these reports DAILY my friend, so I'm qualified to comment here.

Secondly, I'd NEVER, EVER, EVER buy a ticket on DL. I've flown them perhaps twice in the past 2 years, and both times were on a pass (and therefore free).

However, the point wasn't about my experience, it was about those of all of the new customers DL is sending my way each and every day. The ones who are paying $800 to fly a $hitty RJ thru even $hittier CVG between CMH and BNA. They are the ones who are being run off in droves by DL's abysmal service, and that isn't being addressed. Therefore, DL deserves what it's getting.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Jungle jet,

Man, you are a financial GENIUS. OF course we are hurting more than they are right now---primarily because we can't raise fares for some reason(the ATA wants labor costs down at all airlines), and we have more airplanes that require more high priced fuel. We have to adjust our costs, and come up with a viable plan---and that is also obvious and being worked on at this moment.

As far as cutomer satisfaction and the "business guy"---Airtran doesn't fly to every city that Delta does, and we have millions more frequent flyers than Airtran does, and I am willing to bet that our INTL Business Elite service is better than Airtran's first class service. Yes, we actually need to get rid of a lot of our front line employees that are old and jaded---that is true. To improve on that aspect, we will need to bring back some youth and spunk....


Bye Bye--General Lee

No, not a financial genius but I'd compare tax returns with you any day. Also, who is the one with their entire future wrapped up in the decisions made by management of one company? Is that your definition of genius General? 'Cause if so, I'll gladly be considered a moron in your book.

I know you eschew any basic economic education, but the reason you can't raise fares has nothing to do with the ATA. It has everything to do with supply and demand, a basic concept you don't seem to grasp. Simply put, your product is grossly inferior and not worth what you want people to pay. So, combine that with the $hitty service and they won't. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT?

Also, perhaps there's a reason AirTran doesn't fly to every city on earth? That pesky ole supply and demand thing again.

And you can keep your precious Biz Elite. That's only good for when I want to visit my grandmother, as I can be assured that either she or some of her friends from the home will likely be my FA up front.

 

[sweptback]

General,

I'm trying to bust on Delta and I'm not trying to make this personal...but the reality is Delta has a very poor international presence when compared to other legacy carriers. I can't name one geographical area that Delta dominates in. Let's take a count...

Europe:
Too many carriers to name...I doubt Delta could expand any larger without response from Lufthannsa, BA, Virgin, Air France, KLM....not to mention all the US carriers.

The others I agree with, but each carrier has their own niche. You do realize that Delta serves the most European destinations out of any other US carrier? (although Continential is close) The usual suspects, UA and AA serve just the most prestigious routes and leave some of the lesser cities alone. The only thing hurting Delta's European presence is their lack of slots at LHR, but there's nothing they can do about that, really.

 

[General Lee]

Junglejet,

Ok, what? You want to compare tax returns with me? I did mine at H&R Block, and they did a great job. I probably didn't put any hokey tax right offs in there like you did......

You obviously don't know anything about the ATA and their plan to conquer aviation labor and their "high salaries." You haven't heard anything about that? Really? Hmmmmm.

Atleast you agree with me about the old stews we have up front. I can't do anything about that--and I wish I could. It would be nice to see a stew under 30 for once!

As far as supply and demand for Airtran vs Delta---it is also because they don't have the same amount of aircraft. If Airtran were a lot bigger, and had more gate space at ATL, they would probably go after more cities. But, even with more aircraft they would probably stay away from some of the INTL cities...


And, the Biz elite, with the 5 course meals to Europe and South America is really good, even served by a grandmother.... You might be able to afford it---since you are a CEO of whatever whatever.....



House X,

There you go again, spouting off your mouth. Sweptback is correct. We go to more European cities than any other US carrier (CO is close). We also go to Tokyo, and many many South American and Carribean cities---including Lima, Bogota, Buenos Aires (effective Dec 1st), Santiago, Sao Paulo, Caracas, Panama City, San Jose, Liberia, Guatamala City, San Salvador, Aruba, and others. But, you knew that..... In Europe we are the only American Choice from the US to Athens, Istanbul, Moscow, Barcelona, Venice, and Nice. You have got to read our brochures more! Look at the map please.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Nindiri]

First off, unless they are furloughees, our guys don't jumpseat (except occasionally on ATA, they're the only ones who consistently allow 135 jumpseaters as policy). Therefore if we have to reposition someone, we have to buy a ticket (usually at an exobitant fare). So we do have recent experience on just about every carrier out there at the moment. And the way DL pilots consistently treat their colleagues is shameful, refusing jumpseat for not wearing a hat (our guys don't wear them) or a jacket in 110 degree weather in DFW.

I hope you're not seriously even trying to use offline jumpseats to reposition your pilots on company business. That's poor jumpseat etiquette.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I hope you're not seriously even trying to use offline jumpseats to reposition your pilots on company business. That's poor jumpseat etiquette.

I hope you're not seriously attempting to lecture me on jumpseat ettiquite. Because if I thought you were, I'd tell you that when a pilot is reporting to work to pick up an aircraft that is in a different city then they are living in, that is proper use of the jumpseat no matter how you look at it.

Besides, after getting diked over by AA or US, one of the precious few remaining benefits they're left with is the right to jumpseat to work.

I'd hate to think that you'd attempt to deny them that priveledge simply for the sake of appearing to be correct on some silly internet board.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Junglejet,

Ok, what? You want to compare tax returns with me? I did mine at H&R Block, and they did a great job. I probably didn't put any hokey tax right offs in there like you did......

You obviously don't know anything about the ATA and their plan to conquer aviation labor and their "high salaries." You haven't heard anything about that? Really? Hmmmmm.

Atleast you agree with me about the old stews we have up front. I can't do anything about that--and I wish I could. It would be nice to see a stew under 30 for once!

As far as supply and demand for Airtran vs Delta---it is also because they don't have the same amount of aircraft. If Airtran were a lot bigger, and had more gate space at ATL, they would probably go after more cities. But, even with more aircraft they would probably stay away from some of the INTL cities...


And, the Biz elite, with the 5 course meals to Europe and South America is really good, even served by a grandmother.... You might be able to afford it---since you are a CEO of whatever whatever.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

The fact that you use H&R Block for tax purposes tells me all I need to know about your financial situation, and why you have it in for people with a higher level of understanding than you posess. As far as your hokey tax write off comment, I'll attribute that to ignorance and jealousy on your part. I guess if I was bitter, stuck at a dead-end company on whom I was dependant for my financial security I'd probably be the same way as you.

I am aware of the discussions and plans, but I think that has little to do with why DL is facing dark days. Besides, let's be honest here. DL pilots are overpaid, and your absolute refusal to accept that is not only screwing your company, but also your co-workers who are beginning to hate the sight of any DL pilot. You guys have been drinking so much union kool-aid for years now that you have no concept of what your egotisitcal stance is doing to your co-workers, who are busying themselves with driving as much business away as they can while they are still able.

Perhaps AirTran doesn't have as many aircraft because they don't want as many aircraft? Perhaps they're a little smarter in the financing department than your boys upstairs? I mean, have you seen their balance sheet lately? Compared their debt-to-equity ratio to yours? Do you even know what that means?

I not only could afford your overrated and overpriced Senior Citizen Elite program, I can get financing for $30 million aircraft and stock them with all the gourmet food in the world and cabin staff who care. Then, I lease them to a company who ends up paying me less for the use of said aircraft then they'd waste getting $hit on by DL.

How you like them apples?

 

[Full of LUV]

I didn't know that an arse could fly a DC9

The fact that you use H&R Block for tax purposes tells me all I need to know about your financial situation, and why you have it in for people with a higher level of understanding than you posess. As far as your hokey tax write off comment, I'll attribute that to ignorance and jealousy on your part. I guess if I was bitter, stuck at a dead-end company on whom I was dependant for my financial security I'd probably be the same way as you.

I am aware of the discussions and plans, but I think that has little to do with why DL is facing dark days. Besides, let's be honest here. DL pilots are overpaid, and your absolute refusal to accept that is not only screwing your company, but also your co-workers who are beginning to hate the sight of any DL pilot. You guys have been drinking so much union kool-aid for years now that you have no concept of what your egotisitcal stance is doing to your co-workers, who are busying themselves with driving as much business away as they can while they are still able.

Perhaps AirTran doesn't have as many aircraft because they don't want as many aircraft? Perhaps they're a little smarter in the financing department than your boys upstairs? I mean, have you seen their balance sheet lately? Compared their debt-to-equity ratio to yours? Do you even know what that means?

I not only could afford your overrated and overpriced Senior Citizen Elite program, I can get financing for $30 million aircraft and stock them with all the gourmet food in the world and cabin staff who care. Then, I lease them to a company who ends up paying me less for the use of said aircraft then they'd waste getting $hit on by DL.

How you like them apples?

Hey Jungle Jet,
I don't know if your right or wrong, but take it from me, your presentation makes you sound like a complete horses arse!

 

[Nindiri]

I hope you're not seriously attempting to lecture me on jumpseat ettiquite. Because if I thought you were, I'd tell you that when a pilot is reporting to work to pick up an aircraft that is in a different city then they are living in, that is proper use of the jumpseat no matter how you look at it.

Besides, after getting diked over by AA or US, one of the precious few remaining benefits they're left with is the right to jumpseat to work.

I'd hate to think that you'd attempt to deny them that priveledge simply for the sake of appearing to be correct on some silly internet board.

Wrong. The jumpseat is for pilots commuting to/from their domicile, or on personal travel. Your post makes it sound like you're using it to deadhead your pilots on company business. I'm glad to give them a ride if they are on their own time, but if they're on company assigned deadheads then it's your responsibility to pay their fare.