Delta's taking the path of Pan Am by trying to become a long-haul carrier

[House_X]

FLB717,


Ok, deal. You guys stay with cities like DAY and Moline, and we will concentrate on Aruba, San Jose Costa Rica, Buenos Aires, Rome, and other cites like that. Deal.........(But we can't give up on LGA, DCA, PHL, LAS, LAX, EWR(we would like to give up EWR), ORD, and a few others.....)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I'm trying to bust on Delta and I'm not trying to make this personal...but the reality is Delta has a very poor international presence when compared to other legacy carriers. I can't name one geographical area that Delta dominates in. Let's take a count...

Latin America:
American and Continental have this region already locked up...

Europe:
Too many carriers to name...I doubt Delta could expand any larger without response from Lufthannsa, BA, Virgin, Air France, KLM....not to mention all the US carriers.

Asia:
The most competitive market in the world. United and Northwest dominate Asia in terms of US carriers. They have a strong presence in Japan, Hong Kong, Mainland China and S.E. Asia. The slots (landing rights) are given out by individual governments. Cathay, ANA, JAL, KAL and Singapore continue to aggressively buy more airplanes and are expanding into US markets. Even now, United continues to have a strong Asia schedule and is adding flights to China despite it's financial difficulties.

I fly on Delta a lot...and I can tell you as a non-rever, the coach class service is no different from an LCC. I think Delta needs to find a way to reduce it's costs and battle the LCC's and it must find it fast. Shifting to International will not help...coach, business and first class on Delta is below standard when compared to international carriers. Unless you guys can reduce your ticket prices and hire F/A's from Hooters....the flying public will continue to buy tickets on carriers like Virgin if they want to go to Europe.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

It may be no excuse that they are understaffed when you "paid your money" for the flight, but just how much did you pay? $29 Roundtrip?

And your point is what? (I know your really didn't have one, just flaming away but I'll humor you and actually think you were serious).

First off, unless they are furloughees, our guys don't jumpseat (except occasionally on ATA, they're the only ones who consistently allow 135 jumpseaters as policy). Therefore if we have to reposition someone, we have to buy a ticket (usually at an exobitant fare). So we do have recent experience on just about every carrier out there at the moment. And the way DL pilots consistently treat their colleagues is shameful, refusing jumpseat for not wearing a hat (our guys don't wear them) or a jacket in 110 degree weather in DFW. The ground staff is worse, but that's another issue. I get these reports DAILY my friend, so I'm qualified to comment here.

Secondly, I'd NEVER, EVER, EVER buy a ticket on DL. I've flown them perhaps twice in the past 2 years, and both times were on a pass (and therefore free).

However, the point wasn't about my experience, it was about those of all of the new customers DL is sending my way each and every day. The ones who are paying $800 to fly a $hitty RJ thru even $hittier CVG between CMH and BNA. They are the ones who are being run off in droves by DL's abysmal service, and that isn't being addressed. Therefore, DL deserves what it's getting.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Jungle jet,

Man, you are a financial GENIUS. OF course we are hurting more than they are right now---primarily because we can't raise fares for some reason(the ATA wants labor costs down at all airlines), and we have more airplanes that require more high priced fuel. We have to adjust our costs, and come up with a viable plan---and that is also obvious and being worked on at this moment.

As far as cutomer satisfaction and the "business guy"---Airtran doesn't fly to every city that Delta does, and we have millions more frequent flyers than Airtran does, and I am willing to bet that our INTL Business Elite service is better than Airtran's first class service. Yes, we actually need to get rid of a lot of our front line employees that are old and jaded---that is true. To improve on that aspect, we will need to bring back some youth and spunk....


Bye Bye--General Lee

No, not a financial genius but I'd compare tax returns with you any day. Also, who is the one with their entire future wrapped up in the decisions made by management of one company? Is that your definition of genius General? 'Cause if so, I'll gladly be considered a moron in your book.

I know you eschew any basic economic education, but the reason you can't raise fares has nothing to do with the ATA. It has everything to do with supply and demand, a basic concept you don't seem to grasp. Simply put, your product is grossly inferior and not worth what you want people to pay. So, combine that with the $hitty service and they won't. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT?

Also, perhaps there's a reason AirTran doesn't fly to every city on earth? That pesky ole supply and demand thing again.

And you can keep your precious Biz Elite. That's only good for when I want to visit my grandmother, as I can be assured that either she or some of her friends from the home will likely be my FA up front.

 

[sweptback]

General,

I'm trying to bust on Delta and I'm not trying to make this personal...but the reality is Delta has a very poor international presence when compared to other legacy carriers. I can't name one geographical area that Delta dominates in. Let's take a count...

Europe:
Too many carriers to name...I doubt Delta could expand any larger without response from Lufthannsa, BA, Virgin, Air France, KLM....not to mention all the US carriers.

The others I agree with, but each carrier has their own niche. You do realize that Delta serves the most European destinations out of any other US carrier? (although Continential is close) The usual suspects, UA and AA serve just the most prestigious routes and leave some of the lesser cities alone. The only thing hurting Delta's European presence is their lack of slots at LHR, but there's nothing they can do about that, really.

 

[General Lee]

Junglejet,

Ok, what? You want to compare tax returns with me? I did mine at H&R Block, and they did a great job. I probably didn't put any hokey tax right offs in there like you did......

You obviously don't know anything about the ATA and their plan to conquer aviation labor and their "high salaries." You haven't heard anything about that? Really? Hmmmmm.

Atleast you agree with me about the old stews we have up front. I can't do anything about that--and I wish I could. It would be nice to see a stew under 30 for once!

As far as supply and demand for Airtran vs Delta---it is also because they don't have the same amount of aircraft. If Airtran were a lot bigger, and had more gate space at ATL, they would probably go after more cities. But, even with more aircraft they would probably stay away from some of the INTL cities...


And, the Biz elite, with the 5 course meals to Europe and South America is really good, even served by a grandmother.... You might be able to afford it---since you are a CEO of whatever whatever.....



House X,

There you go again, spouting off your mouth. Sweptback is correct. We go to more European cities than any other US carrier (CO is close). We also go to Tokyo, and many many South American and Carribean cities---including Lima, Bogota, Buenos Aires (effective Dec 1st), Santiago, Sao Paulo, Caracas, Panama City, San Jose, Liberia, Guatamala City, San Salvador, Aruba, and others. But, you knew that..... In Europe we are the only American Choice from the US to Athens, Istanbul, Moscow, Barcelona, Venice, and Nice. You have got to read our brochures more! Look at the map please.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Nindiri]

First off, unless they are furloughees, our guys don't jumpseat (except occasionally on ATA, they're the only ones who consistently allow 135 jumpseaters as policy). Therefore if we have to reposition someone, we have to buy a ticket (usually at an exobitant fare). So we do have recent experience on just about every carrier out there at the moment. And the way DL pilots consistently treat their colleagues is shameful, refusing jumpseat for not wearing a hat (our guys don't wear them) or a jacket in 110 degree weather in DFW.

I hope you're not seriously even trying to use offline jumpseats to reposition your pilots on company business. That's poor jumpseat etiquette.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I hope you're not seriously even trying to use offline jumpseats to reposition your pilots on company business. That's poor jumpseat etiquette.

I hope you're not seriously attempting to lecture me on jumpseat ettiquite. Because if I thought you were, I'd tell you that when a pilot is reporting to work to pick up an aircraft that is in a different city then they are living in, that is proper use of the jumpseat no matter how you look at it.

Besides, after getting diked over by AA or US, one of the precious few remaining benefits they're left with is the right to jumpseat to work.

I'd hate to think that you'd attempt to deny them that priveledge simply for the sake of appearing to be correct on some silly internet board.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Junglejet,

Ok, what? You want to compare tax returns with me? I did mine at H&R Block, and they did a great job. I probably didn't put any hokey tax right offs in there like you did......

You obviously don't know anything about the ATA and their plan to conquer aviation labor and their "high salaries." You haven't heard anything about that? Really? Hmmmmm.

Atleast you agree with me about the old stews we have up front. I can't do anything about that--and I wish I could. It would be nice to see a stew under 30 for once!

As far as supply and demand for Airtran vs Delta---it is also because they don't have the same amount of aircraft. If Airtran were a lot bigger, and had more gate space at ATL, they would probably go after more cities. But, even with more aircraft they would probably stay away from some of the INTL cities...


And, the Biz elite, with the 5 course meals to Europe and South America is really good, even served by a grandmother.... You might be able to afford it---since you are a CEO of whatever whatever.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

The fact that you use H&R Block for tax purposes tells me all I need to know about your financial situation, and why you have it in for people with a higher level of understanding than you posess. As far as your hokey tax write off comment, I'll attribute that to ignorance and jealousy on your part. I guess if I was bitter, stuck at a dead-end company on whom I was dependant for my financial security I'd probably be the same way as you.

I am aware of the discussions and plans, but I think that has little to do with why DL is facing dark days. Besides, let's be honest here. DL pilots are overpaid, and your absolute refusal to accept that is not only screwing your company, but also your co-workers who are beginning to hate the sight of any DL pilot. You guys have been drinking so much union kool-aid for years now that you have no concept of what your egotisitcal stance is doing to your co-workers, who are busying themselves with driving as much business away as they can while they are still able.

Perhaps AirTran doesn't have as many aircraft because they don't want as many aircraft? Perhaps they're a little smarter in the financing department than your boys upstairs? I mean, have you seen their balance sheet lately? Compared their debt-to-equity ratio to yours? Do you even know what that means?

I not only could afford your overrated and overpriced Senior Citizen Elite program, I can get financing for $30 million aircraft and stock them with all the gourmet food in the world and cabin staff who care. Then, I lease them to a company who ends up paying me less for the use of said aircraft then they'd waste getting $hit on by DL.

How you like them apples?

 

[Full of LUV]

I didn't know that an arse could fly a DC9

The fact that you use H&R Block for tax purposes tells me all I need to know about your financial situation, and why you have it in for people with a higher level of understanding than you posess. As far as your hokey tax write off comment, I'll attribute that to ignorance and jealousy on your part. I guess if I was bitter, stuck at a dead-end company on whom I was dependant for my financial security I'd probably be the same way as you.

I am aware of the discussions and plans, but I think that has little to do with why DL is facing dark days. Besides, let's be honest here. DL pilots are overpaid, and your absolute refusal to accept that is not only screwing your company, but also your co-workers who are beginning to hate the sight of any DL pilot. You guys have been drinking so much union kool-aid for years now that you have no concept of what your egotisitcal stance is doing to your co-workers, who are busying themselves with driving as much business away as they can while they are still able.

Perhaps AirTran doesn't have as many aircraft because they don't want as many aircraft? Perhaps they're a little smarter in the financing department than your boys upstairs? I mean, have you seen their balance sheet lately? Compared their debt-to-equity ratio to yours? Do you even know what that means?

I not only could afford your overrated and overpriced Senior Citizen Elite program, I can get financing for $30 million aircraft and stock them with all the gourmet food in the world and cabin staff who care. Then, I lease them to a company who ends up paying me less for the use of said aircraft then they'd waste getting $hit on by DL.

How you like them apples?

Hey Jungle Jet,
I don't know if your right or wrong, but take it from me, your presentation makes you sound like a complete horses arse!

 

[Nindiri]

I hope you're not seriously attempting to lecture me on jumpseat ettiquite. Because if I thought you were, I'd tell you that when a pilot is reporting to work to pick up an aircraft that is in a different city then they are living in, that is proper use of the jumpseat no matter how you look at it.

Besides, after getting diked over by AA or US, one of the precious few remaining benefits they're left with is the right to jumpseat to work.

I'd hate to think that you'd attempt to deny them that priveledge simply for the sake of appearing to be correct on some silly internet board.

Wrong. The jumpseat is for pilots commuting to/from their domicile, or on personal travel. Your post makes it sound like you're using it to deadhead your pilots on company business. I'm glad to give them a ride if they are on their own time, but if they're on company assigned deadheads then it's your responsibility to pay their fare.

 

[Indapool]

Besides, after getting diked over by AA or US, one of the precious few remaining benefits they're left with is the right to jumpseat to work


So you think that making your pilots jumpseat to work is a benefit?

NICE!

Hey mabey they can wash the airplane and dump the trash in the office on Saturday's as well.
Perhaps mow the lawn next to the hanger and wash your car while they are there.

 

[House_X]

Junglejet,

Ok, what? You want to compare tax returns with me? I did mine at H&R Block, and they did a great job. I probably didn't put any hokey tax right offs in there like you did......

You obviously don't know anything about the ATA and their plan to conquer aviation labor and their "high salaries." You haven't heard anything about that? Really? Hmmmmm.

Atleast you agree with me about the old stews we have up front. I can't do anything about that--and I wish I could. It would be nice to see a stew under 30 for once!

As far as supply and demand for Airtran vs Delta---it is also because they don't have the same amount of aircraft. If Airtran were a lot bigger, and had more gate space at ATL, they would probably go after more cities. But, even with more aircraft they would probably stay away from some of the INTL cities...


And, the Biz elite, with the 5 course meals to Europe and South America is really good, even served by a grandmother.... You might be able to afford it---since you are a CEO of whatever whatever.....



House X,

There you go again, spouting off your mouth. Sweptback is correct. We go to more European cities than any other US carrier (CO is close). We also go to Tokyo, and many many South American and Carribean cities---including Lima, Bogota, Buenos Aires (effective Dec 1st), Santiago, Sao Paulo, Caracas, Panama City, San Jose, Liberia, Guatamala City, San Salvador, Aruba, and others. But, you knew that..... In Europe we are the only American Choice from the US to Athens, Istanbul, Moscow, Barcelona, Venice, and Nice. You have got to read our brochures more! Look at the map please.

Bye Bye--General Lee

What's the frequency of those flights General? Delta may go to more cities but Delta does not have the most flights to Europe nor do they carry the most people overseas either. United and American still carries more people across the Atlantic than Delta. Delta likes to do one flight per day rather than frequency to high profit routes. All the Latin American cities you mentioned are serviced by AA and CO with higher frequency. As far as Asia is concern...you go to one destination, Tokyo Narita, that's it...the only carrier weaker than Delta in Asia is US Air, and it's because they don't fly to Asia at all.

Look at YOUR map...and look at all the codeshares on the skyteam. Air France and Korean Air are doing a lot of those "international flights"....

You can say I'm spouting off...that's fine...but the facts remain the facts. Delta needs to become a better airline if it wants to compete in the 21st century.

 

[enigma]

I hope you're not seriously attempting to lecture me on jumpseat ettiquite. Because if I thought you were, I'd tell you that when a pilot is reporting to work to pick up an aircraft that is in a different city then they are living in, that is proper use of the jumpseat no matter how you look at it.

Besides, after getting diked over by AA or US, one of the precious few remaining benefits they're left with is the right to jumpseat to work.

I'd hate to think that you'd attempt to deny them that priveledge simply for the sake of appearing to be correct on some silly internet board.

I'll tell you that they will be denied my jumpseat. It has nothing to do with appearing to be correct on a silly internet bulletin bbs. It has everything to do with protecting the privilege. If you need to position your pilots, for your companys bottom line, don't send em to my airplane. My jumpseat is reserved for airline pilots who choose to/are forced to live out of domicile.

enigma, Spirit Captain.

 

[FDJ2]

I hope you're not seriously attempting to lecture me on jumpseat ettiquite. Because if I thought you were, I'd tell you that when a pilot is reporting to work to pick up an aircraft that is in a different city then they are living in, that is proper use of the jumpseat no matter how you look at it.

Man, you don't have a clue. A pilot can not use the jumpseat to chase aircraft around to different cities. He can use it for his personal travel and to commute to his domicile. When I flew for a supplemental carrier, if the aircraft was not at its domicile, the crew either dead headed on a company airplane or the company bought a ticket.

 

[AV8700]

I'll tell you that they will be denied my jumpseat. It has nothing to do with appearing to be correct on a silly internet bulletin bbs. It has everything to do with protecting the privilege. If you need to position your pilots, for your companys bottom line, don't send em to my airplane. My jumpseat is reserved for airline pilots who choose to/are forced to live out of domicile.

enigma, Spirit Captain.

Ditto!
ASA Capt

 

[General Lee]

Jungle Jet,

Yeah, ok Donald Frump. You scare me with all of your "big words" and scary "money talk"---all I am is a caveman......Whatever dude. Oh yeah, we are over paid. Tell that to everyone else on this board that wants to have a great contract with great pay. We all strive for a good lifestyle, and unlike you---probably haven't inherited it. Oh, that's right, you are a C.E.O----wow. You probabbly don't understand labor/management relations either. You say we are "$crewing" our fellow employees. Well, they went down a different path, of their own choosing. We selected union representation and pay each month for it. They chose to believe in the company. It was a choice. Our "rich" contract took time to receive, and it was signed by the then CEO Leo Mullin. We became a fixed cost. Then, 9-11 struck and everything started to tumble. (Did you know about 9-11 before it happened? If you did, why didn't you tell someone?) The company furloughed a bunch of people and parked planes---and never took any pay cuts from any of the non-union people. They really never asked us for any for more than a year. We offered to talk to them and see the books, and then early this year we offered a pay cut. Management wanted it all, and then sold the fuel hedges. Please don't blame us for all that is wrong at this company. You really need to get the story straight. Next thing you know, you will be blaming us for the $2 billion stock buy back pre-9-11 that vanished after that day and resulting stock tumble....



House X,

By a city basis, we go to more cities in Europe than any other US airline. Look at the Map again. That is what I mean---I never said by the number of flights. American probably has more flights on a flight basis---and that is because they have rights into LHR. As far as our codeshares, yes, we have a lot. The Skyteam is huge, and we would like to fly more of it. In fact, we have a grievance in the courts (arbitrator) right now addressing that issue. We just don't have the number of planes it takes to fly more of those same INTL flights. We should have ordered more when times were good, but we spent $2 billion on stock buy backs that later evaporated. I guess that was MY fault.... According to Jungle Jet, it was. Asia is our weak spot, and I never said it wasn't. Latin America does very well for us because a lot of people don't like going through MIA. One thing we do well is India, and we are adding a second daily flight (thru FRA and CDG) starting in DEC I believe---which will make us the largest operator to India (as a US Airline), even over NW. I hope we expand more to Europe, Asia, and Latin America/South America, but it is not up to me....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jungle_Jet]

RE: Jumpseating

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. I guy lives in city A. The aircraft is in city B. They are reporting to work where the aircraft is located, we don't have domiciles per se.

Don't worry Enigma, you won't see any of our guys anyway (why do you assume you haven't in the past?). Spirit doesn't fly anywhere we can't get to by other means, and your people aren't exactly legendary for their treatment to begin with.

So you guys can stop lecturing me on proper protocol. In fact, I helped draft some of those protocols back in the day and probably understand them better then most.

 

[General Lee]

Know it all!

 

[KingAirer]

RE: Jumpseating

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. I guy lives in city A. The aircraft is in city B. They are reporting to work where the aircraft is located, we don't have domiciles per se.

Don't worry Enigma, you won't see any of our guys anyway (why do you assume you haven't in the past?). Spirit doesn't fly anywhere we can't get to by other means, and your people aren't exactly legendary for their treatment to begin with.

So you guys can stop lecturing me on proper protocol. In fact, I helped draft some of those protocols back in the day and probably understand them better then most.

Yeah Riiiight.

 

[Nindiri]

RE: Jumpseating

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. I guy lives in city A. The aircraft is in city B. They are reporting to work where the aircraft is located, we don't have domiciles per se.

So you require your pilots to provide their own transportation to their assignment, wherever that may happen to be? I hope Delta management is not getting any ideas from you.

what else do you make them do? Provide their own hotel on layovers?

 

[Jungle_Jet]

nindiri, I guess in your haste to flame you overlooked the post where I made it clear that probably 90% of the time we purchase tickets for our people.

Surely an inability to thoroughly read and process info is not a common trait among DL pilots? Seems common to the ones on this board, that's for sure.

 

[mandopicker]

Why all the animosity towards Delta pilots Jungle? It's OK to be in the charter business--you don't need to justify it to the rest of us.

 

[General Lee]

Jungle jet,

Yeah really, did you lose your "fortune" in Delta stock? It was all because of us---the PILOTS! HA HAHA AHAHHAHAHAHA Whatever Donald Frump!



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Dear General...



Your friend,

Jungle Jet

 

[xdays]

And

First off, unless they are furloughees, our guys don't jumpseat (except occasionally on ATA, they're the only ones who consistently allow 135 jumpseaters as policy). Therefore if we have to reposition someone, we have to buy a ticket (usually at an exobitant fare). So we do have recent experience on just about every carrier out there at the moment. And the way DL pilots consistently treat their colleagues is shameful, refusing jumpseat for not wearing a hat (our guys don't wear them) or a jacket in 110 degree weather in DFW. The ground staff is worse, but that's another issue. I get these reports DAILY my friend, so I'm qualified to comment here.

.

Getting second hand information does not "qualify" someone to comment as if it were fact. Delta has not required a jacket or a hat to jumpseat for years, so your information is not valid. That's fact. If your source could supply a flight number, city pair, and date from one of your DAILY reports I would be happy check its accuracy .

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I get it. I'm supposed to take the word of some anonomous poster on a message board against that of my personal friends an colleagues?

Are you seriously suggesting that?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Jungle jet,

Yeah really, did you lose your "fortune" in Delta stock? It was all because of us---the PILOTS! HA HAHA AHAHHAHAHAHA Whatever Donald Frump!



Bye Bye--General Lee

Still debating like a teenage girl I see. Some things never change eh private.
This is a typical example of the fact filled, referenced with footnotes posts that this tool regales us with on a daily basis.

 

[xdays]

I get it. I'm supposed to take the word of some anonomous poster on a message board against that of my personal friends an colleagues?

Are you seriously suggesting that?

Don't take anyones word. Supply flight number, city pair, and date and it can be easily verified. You're asking everyone here to accept your anonymous source as supplying valid information, yet you balk at supplying information that can validate your source?

 

[enigma]

RE: Jumpseating

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. I guy lives in city A. The aircraft is in city B. They are reporting to work where the aircraft is located, we don't have domiciles per se.

Don't worry Enigma, you won't see any of our guys anyway (why do you assume you haven't in the past?). Spirit doesn't fly anywhere we can't get to by other means, and your people aren't exactly legendary for their treatment to begin with.

So you guys can stop lecturing me on proper protocol. In fact, I helped draft some of those protocols back in the day and probably understand them better then most.

Dude, you're showing your ignorance, (or arrogance, maybe both)

Spirit is legendary for our treatment of jumpseaters. We were among the first of fill the airplane with jumpseaters when able. If an airline pilot shows up to my airplane, I WILL attempt to get him on if at all possible. I don't even carry a scab list. We even allow offline jumpseaters to ride in the cabin FA jumpseats as long as our lead FA is ok with that. Our Captains have been know to write out a pass in order to smooth over a beligerant gate agent who doesn't want to issue multiple jumpseats.

You're wrong.

Sorry

enigma

BTW, why not post the name of your organization and I'll contact my jumpseat coordinator and find out how you got the reciprical, if you have one. If you have one, how do I go about getting on the next flight from ABQ to FLL?

 

[Jetsetter]

I have used Spirit to jumpseat a few times, and they have always gone above and beyond for jumpseaters. An extremely professional group of people.

Jungle Jet, almost everything you have said about jumpseating is incorrect. You have zero credibility.